To think people with EUPD/BPD get a tough time on here?

[FFSOMG]

I have been diagnosed with bipolar for 12 years. Two months ago my diagnosis changed to EUPD, and a month ago (different psychiatrist) it changed again to both.

I was so, so upset when I received the EUPD diagnosis because of just how stigmatised it is. If a person is behaving horribly you can guarantee that along with narcissistic personality disorder, some poster will suggest EUPD.

People with EUPD are described as manipulative and controlling. Two things I’m definitely not. I’ve been with my DH for nearly 12 years, married for 6, I have good friendships and don’t struggle with relationships. I ‘just’ suffer with extreme low/mixed moods that cause me to self harm and attempt suicide... what I’m try to say is that I am genuine in my attempts, I don’t ‘cry suicide’ as a way of manipulating those around me like some on here accuse people with EUPD of doing. paragraph edited by MNHQ

Personality disorders are so far behind in terms of being understood and accepted by the general public. It seems if I said that I struggle with depression and anxiety that would be ok, but because my diagnosis is emotional unstable personality disorder that people think we are vile monsters.

@Rinochicken Nowadays they do diagnose BPD/EUPD as early as 16. There is a well known adolescent unit who says this is the most common diagnosis they have for patients there. We're getting an FIA request to get the facts.

People with EUPD say living with the diagnosis is worse than living with the condition because of the stigma and being labelled as an attention seeker if they try to get medical care for the pain they're in, even for physical illnesses. For psychiatrists to diagnosis it so early while the brain is still developing is a form of abuse.

Most people with EUPD aren't manipulative and controlling, although I agree it can be very distressing for people living with the tiny minority that are. They're just as much a victim of the mostly poor mental health care offered as their loved ones.

I think being manipulative is one of the main traits of BPD isn't it? My dsis has to manipulate because she has to maintain the fantasy version of herself at all costs.

Meant to say on my previous thread discharged because they would not address underlying issues which meant they couldn't effectively treat ocd.

For those of you with bpd what is the option where the person involved won't engage treatment / won't talk about it and shrugs it all off?

They have been told if they keep calling and refusing ambulances they will start getting charged - and who will they expect to pay that because they have no money so it will have to be their parents. There areaday a charge for breaking down their door they have no means to pay

We as a family can push all we can for help but if she won't engage they won't take her.

She wants to be left in peace to continue her self destructive cycle

@manontry Being manipulative isn't one of the diagnostic traits (and most people diagnosed with it and their loved ones wouldn't recognise this as a trait).

I'm told the UK uses ICD-10 F60.3 as the diagnostic criteria, the US uses DSM 5 so you might want to take a look. Also the NHS site lists symptoms. EUPD/BPD is widely misunderstood, most people only hear of the worst cases. Hence the prejudice, stigma and abuse of those with it.

Btw I don't have any mental illnesses but a relative was briefly labelled with EUPD traits but not diagnosed with it.

It opened my eyes to the horrific stigma and abuse that goes on against people with this diagnosis. That's why I joined with others to get the truth about what's going on out there.

I suffer with psychotic depression, ptsd and DID

I felt like a monster when I first got diagnosed.
We're not monsters though, we can't control how our brains work. Mine is more of a control issue, I have to be in control of mine and dh money, the bills, food shopping and my worst is cleaning and timing, I have to always be early I can't cope with being late. ( Will add dh is happy with this, he finds it too stressful and over whelming)
I can be like a ticking time bomb with my temper as there's no build up it just hits. If I know I'm having a bad day I stay away from anything that I know may trigger an unnecessary response.( This is quite rare now since being on medication that's stabilised me)
I go to groups to help me deal with this

Since being on my medication, I don't I'm very calm and chilled out, my control issue is still a huge part of day to day life. When things get too much or something reminds me of what's happened to me I disassociate it's my brains coping mechanism which I can't change.
I see it now as these illnesses have made me a better and stronger person
All that matters to me now is that I show my 2 children that it's possible to do anything you want no matter the hurdles

Sorry treesandrocks i probably used the wrong word. The NHS symptoms include

"When people fear abandonment, it can lead to feelings of intense anxiety and anger. You may make frantic efforts to prevent being left alone, such as:

constantly texting or phoning a person
suddenly calling that person in the middle of the night
physically clinging on to that person and refusing to let go
making threats to harm or kill yourself if that person ever leaves you
Alternatively, you may feel others are smothering, controlling or crowding you, which also provokes intense fear and anger. You may then respond by acting in ways to make people go away, such as emotionally withdrawing, rejecting them or using verbal abuse.

These 2 patterns may result in an unstable "love-hate" relationship with certain people"

I suppose if you are on the other end of this it can feel manipulative.

@Manontry Yes I can see that. The first 3 symptoms on the NHS site are emotional instability, disturbed patterns of thinking and impulsive behaviour. The relationships one you describe above is the fourth and, as I'm sure you know, won't apply to everyone with EUPD, it certainly didn't with the people with EUPD I've met.

Abusing and stigmatizing EVERYONE with BPD/EUPD because of a tiny minority that cause such distress to those around them is not acceptable. That's not to minimise the suffering by those with the fourth trait and their loved ones but they do need to realise the true facts about BPD and not throw about the myth that all people with EUPD are manipulative, controlling and attention seeking.

Yes I realise that. It is a symptom though. She is officially diagnosed and her fear of abandonment is the most obvious issue to those around her. She tries to mask the rest.

Actually the very first symptom on the Rethink website is

Extreme reactions to feeling abandoned.

What are these reactions if not usually as described above?

I'm sorry, but trying to avoid being abandoned and being very frightened of abandonment usually leads to what seems to the outside observer to be manipulative techniques, constant calling, suicidal threats etc.

I would say it is absolutely front and centre of BPD. Everything I have read suggests it.

Ime people with personality disorders can be very damaging to those around them. They may not intend to be, it may not be their fault, but I dont think that is that much of a consolation when you on the receiving end. And I'm not convinced that the harm is done only by a "tiny minority" of sufferers either.

Of course a lot of the problem is lack of diagnosis and appropriate treatment/therapies and that's not right and should be addressed.

@Manontry

Sorry clouds, can I ask, did you have childhood trauma?

Most definitely. I think my mother may have undiagnosed BPD she's very emotionally immature and was unable to care for me and my siblings leading to a succession of nannies. One in particular could not have children of her own and got 'too close' to me and my mother sacked her. I do think that I possibly attached to the nanny rather than my mother and then suffered abandonment both from the nanny and from my mother who was not very stable.

I grew up unable to make friends, I think this disrupted attachment bond carried forward into all my (failed) relationships and it was excruciatingly painful and lonely in a way that non sufferers are lucky enough to never understand.

Very glad I got out (of the disorder)

I'm sorry, but trying to avoid being abandoned and being very frightened of abandonment usually leads to what seems to the outside observer to be manipulative techniques, constant calling, suicidal threats etc.

But it’s a much more raw and impulsive and instinctive survival response than what is suggested by the very loaded word ‘manipulative’, which implies forethought and awareness of the impact of others, even if that impact is is disregarded.

When a baby cries or a toddler has a tantrum, we don’t say they are being manipulative, we say they are trying to communicate a need and don’t know how to communicate it any other way.

It is the same for someone with BPD. They are communicating a need, in the only way they know how in their moment of absolute fear and terror.

The word ‘manipulative’ is so loaded and negative, it may be a descriptor, but when used in the context of someone with BPD it is ALWAYS used in a negative and damaging way.

And in many ways, someone with BPD is stuck emotionally in an undeveloped stage, their emotional responses and capacity are much like that of an immature teenager. Their normal emotional development has been damaged. They don’t KNOW how to react as a normally developed person would.

But they are punished nevertheless.

Agree @Rinoachicken, my mum is very emotionally immature and won't accept for example that other people's behaviour to her may be a reaction to her behaviour to them. She will completely disregard how she may have provoked or contributed to a situation. Other people are always wrong and fully accountable/in control of the outcome whereas she is just a poor victim.

I fear this is a common way of thinking for those with BPD and I know when I had it I was unable to look at the part I'd played in a situation. I think because if I did something wrong then I was wrong and I didn't have the self acceptance to be able to say yeah I fucked up there but i'm still okay. So it's easier just to shut it all out with denial.

Rini do you really think that, whatever the reason, that behaviour isn't terribly damaging to anyone on the receiving end?

@Barbariansmum

Please show me where I’ve said that? I haven’t, and if you’ve read my earlier posts you’ll see that I’ve said how I take personal responsibility for my own behaviour and mental health extremely seriously.

But would you say a demanding toddler was extremely damaging?

I like this chap, he has interesting views on BPD. Passing it on in case anyone else thinks he's useful.

And I’m not for one second saying that no one with BPD would try to deliberately hurt someone, of course some people do, like in the rest of the population. You can have BPD and also be a total dick, the two are not mutually exclusive.

But the latter is not BECAUSE of the former

I dont think the year you spend parenting a demanding toddler bears any comparison to dealing with a family member (parent/sibling/spouse) with BPD (or narcissism, or psychopathy) Rino (I was talking about personality disorders in general. And also from long experience).

The best way to respond to someone with BPD is with COMPASSION and ESTABLISHED FIRM BOUNDARIES.

If you are a family member of someone with BPD, your responses to that person can have a considerable impact, positive or negative, on the type of behaviours people have been discussing.

As a family member of someone with BPD you have choices to make. You can educate yourself about the disorder itself (not just based assumptions based on your own family members presentation), you can seek to understand, you can show compassion where needed and you can establish and enforce firm boundaries for your own wellbeing. In short, you can chose to help that person manage the disorder, with or without their own input (though without is much harder).

Or you can walk away.

But if you walk away, do the rest of the BOD world a favour and don’t assume we are all the same as your mother brother sister.

Sorry but how can a body survive taking 100 codeine tablets a day?

It can’t

But it’s a much more raw and impulsive and instinctive survival response than what is suggested by the very loaded word ‘manipulative’

Yes i agree. But comparing it to a toddler is not quite right.

The inability to control this instinctual behaviour is part of the issue. So is being completely unable to accept any responsibility for it.