To think people with EUPD/BPD get a tough time on here?

[FFSOMG]

I have been diagnosed with bipolar for 12 years. Two months ago my diagnosis changed to EUPD, and a month ago (different psychiatrist) it changed again to both.

I was so, so upset when I received the EUPD diagnosis because of just how stigmatised it is. If a person is behaving horribly you can guarantee that along with narcissistic personality disorder, some poster will suggest EUPD.

People with EUPD are described as manipulative and controlling. Two things I’m definitely not. I’ve been with my DH for nearly 12 years, married for 6, I have good friendships and don’t struggle with relationships. I ‘just’ suffer with extreme low/mixed moods that cause me to self harm and attempt suicide... what I’m try to say is that I am genuine in my attempts, I don’t ‘cry suicide’ as a way of manipulating those around me like some on here accuse people with EUPD of doing. paragraph edited by MNHQ

Personality disorders are so far behind in terms of being understood and accepted by the general public. It seems if I said that I struggle with depression and anxiety that would be ok, but because my diagnosis is emotional unstable personality disorder that people think we are vile monsters.

My DM has BPD. She can be a very toxic person to be in contact with. Emotionally immature, controlling, manipulative, abusive and she would win awards for her gaslighting skills!

But, she had a tough, loveless childhood and developed negative coping mechanisms in order to get by. Her disordered personality is an effect of trauma. Because I understand this, I'm still in contact with her (with strict boundaries, we can actually get on well).

Would I judge someone if the told me they had BPD? That would totally depend on their level of self awareness.

The most abusive kind of person with a personality disorder is one that refuses to believe there's anything wrong with them. If I met someone and they were in treatment and realised what their behaviours were and how they affected others, I'd have nothing but sympathy and support to offer.

I agree with previous posters that the really destructive and toxic impact of a loved one with BPD comes with denial/refusal to seek help or engage with the condition. My mother has it and all of her children are deeply, profoundly traumatised as a result. Living with her was quite simply intolerable.

My sister has severe undiagnosed mental health problems, is homeless and has been in prison. My brother has a diagnosis of BPD, has also been in prison and has a very, very difficult time of it - he has, in recent years, engaged with therapy and worked bloody hard to overcome and manage his problems, and I love him dearly - he is altruistic, sensitive, giving, funny and incredibly intelligent - but he is also volatile and hard to be around, and he doesn't make relationships easily.

I have a diagnosis of CPTSD, which I believe could just as easily have been BPD if I had had a slightly different underlying personality or presented slightly differently. All of us are the product of an appalling childhood with a mother who knew she was very mentally ill and chose, rather than do the hard work of engaging with treatment, to make the world (and us) bend around her twisted reality instead.

Do you feel this is the correct diagnosis OP? Have they told you why it's changed? Are you willing to ask questions, challenge it, make things difficult for them until you get answers?

Judgemental people can get stuffed, you know what they're saying isn't true and so do your friends and family, that's what matters not what some ignorant fool on the internet is saying.

Abusing mentally ill people on the internet seems to be fair game, this needs changing. We need people who cause distress to people with mental illnesses to receive the same contempt reserved for racists and homophobes. Nobody chooses to get ill.

With us we were told by a psychologist a relative was attention seeking and had EUPD traits when she was long term depressed and self harming, the clinician later denied saying this but we got the medical records and there it was. This psychologist now works in DBT at a major London hospital. The mental health system is riddled with prejudice.

The most common diagnosis given to patients in an inpatient ward in London used to be psychosis. Now they diagnose most people with EUPD on discharge. Nearly all female. There is something very wrong happening within the mental health world and it needs looking at urgently. madintheuk and pdvoices are useful as are other sites.

Good luck OP, ignore the negative judgemental people, it's often said that the diagnosis is worse than the illness but hopefully things will change in the future. There's a lot of good people working on it including senior clinicians, activists and journalists. Things should get better.

I've lived with someone who most likely had BPD (he had all of the symptoms) and being on the receiving end of someone who is not coping with their symptoms well without any education about BPD was pretty traumatic for me, as I was just 20 years old at the time. I was extremely traumatised myself and also self destructive afterwards as a result. I think many others on here have been through it, so when someone speaks of someone who displays coercive or dramatic behaviours, others are quick to label the person as having BPD traits as they believe it will help the person posting see that it isnt them that it causing the other person to be behaving in that way.

There is definitely a difference between someone struggling with their emotions and displaying extreme and possibly manipulative behaviour because of this, and sustained abusive behaviour which is deliberate and designed to subjugate another person.

I think there is a lack of education about PD's in general. People either focus on self harm or narcissism, but don't explain what personality disorders are and that there are 3 different clusters.

I lived with someone with borderline, I'm not exaggerating to state I am lucky to still be here.
In my experience many with the diagnosis are incapable of seeing or understanding what they put their loved ones through because they are too caught up in their own emotions.
It is, like many other disorders, on a spectrum and some people trigger easier than others, some can suffer psychosis when extremely stressed.
As PPs have pointed out, it is down to the individuals acceptance of their behaviours and their openness to change that makes the difference.

I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like to have disgnoses like yours, OP, and I hope you are getting the help you deserve and need.
With regard to people on mumsnet saying that people with EUPD are 'vile monsters', if that is their experience of someone who has the diagnosis then that is what they are basing their opinion on. Rightly or wrongly, that's what most of us do. If someone has been treated appallingly by someone with EUPD, for example their mothers, then their awful memories of their childhoods will obviously cloud their opinions and most likely they will blame the condition rather than the individual.
I'm glad for you and your family that you are not controlling and manipulative but some with EUPD can be and are. Probably because they are that way inclined anyway, just as those who don't have it can be. However, could you not forgive someone for believing that their close friend/family member is these things by regularly attempting suicide? That would certainly have an effect on their relationships and how they view that person. Living in fear of it happening again, for example. Treating that person differently, making allowances, etc, so even if that is not their intention, their actions will have manipulated the relationship. The results are the same even if the intention is not.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that everyone will have their own experiences and these will all form judgements and opinions and we are all 'allowed' that. What is needed is more education and information about mental health conditions so that diagnoses, misinformation and stigma are not thrown around so casually and negatively. Hopefully it won't be long before we can all discuss our mental health freely and without shame or fear of stigma in the same way we can discuss physical health. I do think change is happening, albeit slowly, but I really hope and believe the tide is turning and mental health is being taken more seriously, for want of a better word. It's the shame of our nation that it has been ignored and feared for so long.

imagine you are suffering from debilitating pain, so bad you want to take your life. You go to hospital for help and, on seeing your diagnosis, they are cold, hostile and refuse treatment. But if you had depression or anxiety you would get help and sympathy.

On top of that you read everywhere that people with your diagnosis are nasty, abusive and the worst people in the world when you know that's not true and is not true for most people with your diagnosis.

That's what it's like for many people diagnosed with EUPD, it's a cold hostile world. No wonder one in ten choose to end it all. The stigma should be reserved for those that abuse or turn their backs on the mentally ill, not the person suffering.

If people had a negative experience growing up with someone with heart disease or autism would they label everyone with that diagnosis negatively and blame the condition not the person? Probably not, but the ignorant and uneducated feel it's ok to do it with EUPD / BPD.

It IS getting better OP as more people become educated but, as other people have said, it's a slow process.

A large number of people previously diagnosed as bipolar are now having their diagnoses 'reformulated' to EUPD. I couldn't tell you why.

I'm bipolar type 1, comorbid with EUPD/C-PTSD. My psychiatrist says EUPD, my psychotherapist (trauma specialist) says C-PTSD. I'm also a recovering alcoholic (it was a maladaptive coping strategy). Either way, it's the result of early and ongoing trauma.

I'm fully aware I'm capable of being manipulative and highly calculating. I have to maintain self-awareness at all times, and engage with any and all help available. You have to do a LOT of work on yourself.

Very few people know my full diagnosis. I'm open about being bipolar, I'm open about being a recovering addict. Public perception means I keep my mouth shut about the rest.

Yes, they do.

It must be very disheartening for people with diagnosed with BPD. In fact, BPD is treatable (DBT - long term individual and group therapy) and people do go on to live stable lives free of the debilitating symptoms and behaviours.

I'd encourage anyone with this diagnosis to NOT share it on forums like this one, because people with BPD are widely stigmatised.

But @JanesKettle, what if people feel unable to talk in real life? This is an anonymous forum, where you can freely NC. Sometimes people with a difficult diagnosis need some support.

I’ve C-PTSD I ended up getting the diagnosis criteria from the DSM-5 and wrote and argued each point of EUPD I didn’t have and then lost the label in a formal letter from my psych. Shouldn’t have had to fight

I know a few people with this diagnosis and all were subjected to the most appalling abuse (not saying this is the case for OP). It seems like a double victimisation to me for this person who has had everyone they should be able to trust abuse them in vile ways to then be treated as if it’s all their fault and be stigmatised for the symptoms of that trauma.
In general, the internet and mumsnet as well, isn’t the best place for you if you are feeling vulnerable.

YANBU.
I had the BPD diagnosis until I was diagnosed with DID.

Both of them are massively trauma based. There is stigma to both but people are awful to BPD survivors. I do agree with the comment that it's professionals that make it worse.

Then again DID is controversial diagnosis in its self.

Hi, I read the other post that I think you’re mentioning and commented on it with my experiences of people with EUPD/BPD. I think people in that post were very quick to jump to EUPD, even if that is how it seems from the outside.

As other people have said, the nature of EUPD is that it can be (I appreciate not all) very difficult to engage with people who are that way. They’re volatile, engage in destructive behaviours, they are manipulative, this is the illness, but it doesn’t make it not true. Just because you don’t ‘cry suicide’, and you aren’t manipulative and controlling, there are people whose EUPD manifests in that way (I have met people who do display that behaviour). It’s not an attack on all people with EUPD, but
It happens with other mental health problems too, where people engage and support and try and be helpful to a person with EUPD for a long time, and then they reach a breaking point.

I think incognito1976 said it best “our suicidal behaviours might not be carried out in order to manipulate, but clearly that sort of behaviour does have a devastating impact on the people around you even if that isn't why you did it. That is something that has to be acknowledged in information about the condition - it's simply factual, not deliberately stigmatising.”

I don’t think it’s people deliberately or maliciously giving people a hard time, I do think it’s a disorder people don’t know much about. Very generally speaking, people often have negative experiences of people with EUPD, and it colours their opinion of the entire disorder. That isn’t right, that’s how stigma works. A lot has been done to discourage stigmas of depression and anxiety, but it’s not quite there yet with ‘personality disorders’, or more misunderstood mental health issues like schizophrenia.

A pp got it right when they said if a person encountered someone who was horrible but had bipolar or autism their behaviour would be excused because of their diagnosis. But it seems to be a stick to beat EUPD sufferers with.

@alldaywatchingdragrace

Someone who says that people with BPD who are in crisis are manipulative, volatile, destructive and controlling is part of the problem and needs to educate themselves.

90% of people with BPD DON'T engage in this behaviour and you probably wouldn't even know they had the disorder. Get involved with EUPD / BPD groups to learn the facts. Just because you met someone who engages in this behaviour doesn't make it a fact that everyone with EUPD does this, some might, most don't. It's certainly not part of the disorder for most people to have these traits. Look it up (ICD-10 F60.3 not all traits are present in everyone diagnosed).

People who sigmatize and label in this way are as ignorant as someone who would label a whole group by the behaviour of a minority. For example, would you label all white people as yobs because of a few football hooligans? What about minority groups if a few of them engaged in negative behaviour? Or is it only vulnerable mentally ill people who are fair game to you?

Please educate yourself before you cause more harm to people with this diagnosis. People who continue to stigmatize people with EUPD cause distress which won't help the suicide rates of this illness, which remains one of the highest of all mental illnesses, most likely due to not only the the illness itself but also being shunned, abused and cruelly treated by ignorant people in society when they find out they've got BPD. In my opinion the mental health abusers have blood on their hands.

If people had a negative experience growing up with someone with heart disease or autism would they label everyone with that diagnosis negatively and blame the condition not the person?

I see your point, but we're not talking about heart disease or autism. We're talking about someone's personality and their core behaviours, which massively affect those close to them.

How do you separate the disorder from the person? Sometimes they're indistinguishable. Being manipulated, abused and controlled by someone you live with is a living hell, it's honestly horrendous. No one should have to ensure abuse, not even if the person 'can't help it'.

It just becomes a huge circle of abuse and disorder. I'm sure I would have been diagnosed with BPD instead of c-PTSD if I hadn't taken responsibility for my behaviours and actively sought to learn healthy positive coping skills as an adult.

As I said, I have huge sympathy for those with BPD as they may well have suffered a traumatic childhood, but I also know that they're likely to not have healthy, positive coping skills and would be very wary of a relationship with them. But I appreciate there is a scale, and my DM is at the severe end of that scale so I realise my experience absolutely informs this opinion.

@HungryHiker

I get what you're saying and have great sympathy for people affected by the tiny minority of pwEUPD who are manipulative, abusive and controlling. They must really suffer too. However this is NOT the majority of pwEUPD.

Honestly if you joined groups, heard from thousands of people living with this disorder and their loved ones you would understand what I'm trying to say. Most people with EUPD are only a risk to themselves and suffer horrendously. Prejudice and ignorance by the uneducated and uniformed only makes it so much worse for them.

Negative behaviour by a small minority of pwEUPD is not representative and shouldn't be as a reason to abuse mentally ill people and especially not by mental health professionals.

Well done for taking responsibility for recovery from your illness, it can't have been easy.

I have EUPD. This thread is so upsetting to me. I am in MBT and take responsibility for my actions as a result of my disorder. But it’s exhausting. And even when I have learned better coping mechanisms, it is not instinct for me - I have to exist in a permanent state of heightened self awareness 100% of the time, what am I feeling, why? Is it reasonable? What is a reasonable response? I am doing that every waking moment of my life and it’s exhausting, and sometimes I’m too exhausted and so my emotions get away from me and then I have to deal with the consequences. People around me mostly have no idea what is happening in my head while they go about their lives NOT over-reacting, NOT over-thinking and self hating.

To hear that there are people who would AVOID a friendship with me purely because of my diagnosis, based on their experience with ONE other person who shared the same diagnosis.

Honestly I do wonder why I’m bothering to even try.

It would be called out as abhorrent if your took this blanket view about any other group of society - but it seems we are fair game.

@treesandrocks thanks for your post, that's really insightful.

I'm thinking about my prejudices and assumptions when it comes to BPD; I suppose my interpretation of the disorder is that the majority rather than the minority engage in abusive behaviours - from your experience that's just not true, so I will happily update my opinion!

I said upthread that my DM, although diagnosed, refuses to believe there is anything wrong with her and The World is to blame. To this day, her relationships are chaotic and she only functions by controlling/manipulating as much as she can.

I was so terrified of becoming my mother I developed a deep sense of self reflection; enough to realise when I was mirroring some of her behaviours because I knew no different (bottling things up until I exploded, etc). The only difference was that I blamed myself and not anyone else, and that seemed to be the reason I was told I had c-PTSD and not BPD. After CBT and compassion therapy I'm a different person. I realised away from my DM I'm laid back, confident and pretty balanced!

So I greatly admire anyone who faces their struggles, whatever form that takes; it's so, so difficult to stop the cycle of abuse and work toward good mental health for yourself and those around you. I think recovery takes a great deal of resilience, support and some luck along the way.

@Rinoachicken I am the same. Constantly checking in on my emotional landscape. Making sure I am not reacting disproportionately or spiralling and taking appropriate steps if I feel I am. The constant need to ground myself and step away im feeling I'm losing control. You're right. It's exhausting. And a daily battle.

You're not alone