AIBU to think the police were out of order?

[Cailleachian]

DS1 (18) has chronic insomnia. A about 6 month back, he started taking nightwalks as a way of wearing himself out and clearing his mind. Sometimes DS2 (17) keeps him company, Tonight, they went out for a walk about 11pm and about 1/2hour later DS2 came bolting in the door, shouting "Mum, Mum, its the police". My first thought was that one of them had got in a fight or been hurt.

I answered the door and a male and female police officer are standing there with DS1. The man asks to come in, telling me that he is here to charge DS2 with breach of the peace.

It transpires that they were stopped by the woman, who was questioning them about why they were walking about and whether they were from a "unit"(?!) when the man came over and started shouting at them and demanding to search them. DS1 was searched, but when DS2 was searched apparently he kept backing away, at which point the man grabbed his hands and pinned him against a wall. DS2 then swore at him repeatedly. Thoughout being told this DS2 is very upset, keeps interrupting the man over minutiae (and at times I felt like was trying to sort out DS1 and DS2's squabbles), but ultimately both of them agree that this is what happened.

In the end he didnt charge him, but to be honest, I'm a bit outraged that he even considered it. I dont know why my sons were stopped (acting suspiciously, out late at night while under 18, area where breakins happen were all reasons I was given). I dont know why he wasnt able to de-escalate a stop and search without physical aggression. And above all I dont understand why he thought it was a child protection issue, given that the only person that assaulted him in the street at night was the policeman himself.

Go-on Mumsnet, give me your best pearl clutching.

I'm just back from the police station to request a search receipt as @Nicknacky suggested. The desk PC couldnt find a log and suggested that I came back tonight when they were on shift.
...
I was initially told that they were stopped because they were acting suspiciously, when I asked how they were acting suspiciously, I was told there had been a number of break-ins in the area, when I questioned what this had to do with my sons, he then moved on to it being a welfare issue.

Fish supper tonight ?

@Cailleachian you still do not get it. YOUR SON escalated it by resisting and swearing. Instead of trying to find fault with the Police I suggest you go sort your kids out and teach them their behaviour was unacceptable. It escalated because of them!

However I would ask for the search report

If it exists.

And because of the male police officer’s behaviour.

Quite Professor interesting how it moved on to a welfare issue when challenged?

ProfessorSlocombe, like it or not, stop and search is legal and I for one am glad it is.

If people do not cooperate when stopped by the police they are going to have problems.

ProfessorSlocombe, like it or not, stop and search is legal and I for one am glad it is.

Stop and search is "legal" when done "legally". It's sort of how laws work. Loads of things are "legal". When done legally. And I for one am glad they are.

God, at that age I would have fallen over myself trying to do whatever I was asked by a police officer. I never would have sworn at a police officer in a million years! My mum would have been scarier than the police officer if I'd behaved like that grin

My mother would have been arrested for assault (of me) had I gobbed off to a police officer in front of her.

My father would probably have bought me a car.

Hooray that there were plain clothes police about patrolling out stabby streets keeping our sons safe from gangs knife attacks!
I would have been ashamed if any son of mine was not able to interact Respectfully and calmly with the police
Your sons mental health is not good and exercise is good for that but it isn’t safe for young men to be out after bed time can he exercise ( I recommend swimming) afternoons and long walks early morning ( again I recommend dog walking as pet are good for mental health , can he borrow a dog? )

Don't be obtuse ProfessorSlocombe. 🙂

The officers identified themselves, the youth didn't cooperate.

The problem with small yobs is that they grow into big yobs.
*Not for one minute saying your boys are yobs, OP.

@Sunflowers211 You are right, I still don't get it, which is why I went up to the station this morning to request the search receipt.

The timeline (not in dispute) is

• unmarked car stops and requests sons come over, they ignore.
• car stops and female police officer gets out and comes to talk to boys.
• policeman shouts from car, exits car continuing shouting to get hands out of pockets
• DS1 is searched by policeman while police woman holds DS2 wrist
• DS2 is searched by policeman and backs away while being searched
• policeman grabs both wrists and pushes him against a wall
• DS2 swears repeatedly at policeman.
• Both boys are bundled into the car and told they are going to the station so that DS2 can be charged.
• DS1 points out that DS2 is 17 and asks if they need a parent
• Police bring them home and policeman tells me that he is charging DS2 with breach of the peace.
• Police leave without charging him.

I dont think that backing away was helpful, but I can understand DS2 being weirded out at being searched, and I would have expected the police officer to have understood that as well and tried to chill him out rather than using physical force. Of course DS2 should not have sworn at the officer, but I would have imagined that it was a shock reaction.

You've actually been to the police station to ask for a search receipt??? Yep, I was right, your son gets his dickish behaviour and entitled attitude from you. Unbelievable. And have you tucked your little soldier up in bed, and stroked his brow and told him that it's alright, everything he does is perfect and mummy will protect him from the big bad policeman....you really haven't a clue, have you?

Why shouldn't the OP ask for a search receipt? How does that make her entitled?

@Cailleachian

DS2 swears repeatedly at policeman

The backing off I can almost understand. The swearing at someone he knows is a police officer is another matter.

You haven't clarified whether this incident is a complete one-off for your younger son or if he has previous form for this.

The officers were likely in plain clothes because they've been tasked with covert burglary patrols because the area has been hit heavily recently. This is normal practice and makes it easier to catch the burglars that you would no doubt be complaining about breaking into your home otherwise. I can 100 percent tell you that there is probably more to this than you know and that your son was likely very rude and obstructive towards the officers, they wouldn't be bothering themselves with the extra work of dealing with him if he had been reasonable in any way. Stop searches are a good thing - have you not watched the news and seen the issues with knife crime etc?! Police are encouraged to stop search more people now and just by virtue of the fact they are young males wondering the streets at night yes they are acting suspiciously and yes a stop would e justified. If your son has been restrained during this I would suggest that is his fault. I hope to god you aren't one of the people who complain that 'police have done nothing' when you are a victim of crime.

Ds2 was fully aware of why he was being searched. Backing away, isnt just unhelpful, its ridiculous.

It's ok saying the officer should have tried to chill him out but at that point he had reason to believe they were hiding something. Even if it is just by reading their body language.

Don't be obtuse ProfessorSlocombe. 🙂 The officers identified themselves, the youth didn't cooperate

And, as has been pointed out - with reference to the governments own website, just identifying yourself as a police officer isn't a magic wand that suddenly "appears" a reasonable suspicion. And without that, the officers actions were not a lawful stop and search (in the absence of special situations authorised by a senior officer).

Now the OP has requested the receipt for the stop and search, and until (or indeed if ) that is produced, no one here can know the exact situation. It may well have been a perfectly legitimate stop and search. I have my doubts, but I've not claimed it wasn't.

The problem with small yobs is that they grow into big yobs.

Putting aside the language there, it's an equally valid aphorism that the problem with police ignoring little laws, is they grow into police ignoring big laws.

Why shouldn't the OP ask for a search receipt? How does that make her entitled?

Now that is a peculiarly British trait. The notion that people who know - and exercise - their rights are somehow "troublemakers".

When your son behaves like that, the officer doesn't know whether he's carrying an offensive weapon and possibly going to use it. The officer is bound to be on alert and will restrain if necessary.

If your son complies and isn't carrying anything, there won't be a problem.

Do you really think the police have nothing better to do than sort out search receipts for you over something that was entirely your son's fault?
Why are you not trying to deal with his awful behaviour rather than trying to pass the blame?

Do you really think the police have nothing better to do than sort out search receipts for you over something that was entirely your son's fault?

Don't be ridiculous. I disagree with OP's son behaviour entirely but the mother has the right to ask for a search receipt.

So backing away, resisting and swearing aren't reasonable grounds to suspect the detainee is hiding/trying to hide something on their person?

DS1 has never been in any trouble with the police.

When DS2 was 12/13 he got involved in petty shoplifting (sweeties, ginger etc). He was never charged, but did go on a pre-offending course offered as an alternative to a charge. No police involvement since.

When DS2 was 12/13 he got involved in petty shoplifting (sweeties, ginger etc). He was never charged, but did go on a pre-offending course offered as an alternative to a charge. No police involvement since.

Presumably there was some police involvement initially though? Was he arrested then?

Just wondering if the previous experience triggered this reaction in him. His brother, after all, complied.

Do you really think the police have nothing better to do than sort out search receipts for you over something that was entirely your son's fault?

The only thing the police have to do is their job. Which includes providing receipts for S&S when asked. It's the law, you see, and it's that is upholding the law. If people don't like the law, they are free to seek to change it.

We don't get to pick and choose which laws we obey, but neither do the police.

I'd be pissed off too if I was shouted at by plain+clothes officers, how am I supposed to know they are who they say are and not some weirdo trying to grope me? If they were on uniform, it would be different.