AIBU to think the police were out of order?

[Cailleachian]

DS1 (18) has chronic insomnia. A about 6 month back, he started taking nightwalks as a way of wearing himself out and clearing his mind. Sometimes DS2 (17) keeps him company, Tonight, they went out for a walk about 11pm and about 1/2hour later DS2 came bolting in the door, shouting "Mum, Mum, its the police". My first thought was that one of them had got in a fight or been hurt.

I answered the door and a male and female police officer are standing there with DS1. The man asks to come in, telling me that he is here to charge DS2 with breach of the peace.

It transpires that they were stopped by the woman, who was questioning them about why they were walking about and whether they were from a "unit"(?!) when the man came over and started shouting at them and demanding to search them. DS1 was searched, but when DS2 was searched apparently he kept backing away, at which point the man grabbed his hands and pinned him against a wall. DS2 then swore at him repeatedly. Thoughout being told this DS2 is very upset, keeps interrupting the man over minutiae (and at times I felt like was trying to sort out DS1 and DS2's squabbles), but ultimately both of them agree that this is what happened.

In the end he didnt charge him, but to be honest, I'm a bit outraged that he even considered it. I dont know why my sons were stopped (acting suspiciously, out late at night while under 18, area where breakins happen were all reasons I was given). I dont know why he wasnt able to de-escalate a stop and search without physical aggression. And above all I dont understand why he thought it was a child protection issue, given that the only person that assaulted him in the street at night was the policeman himself.

Go-on Mumsnet, give me your best pearl clutching.

I guess it's a real grey area.

Law abiding innocent citizens just going for a walk are very likely to be freaked out by 2 police officers stoping them and demanding a search.
I don't think it's fair to demonise a 17yo lad for going into flight mode. It's a natural hormonal response.

But on the flip side I don't envy the police one bit. They have a massive task trying to regain control and order on the streets of the Uk currently - very understaffed and overworked and hear stories frequently of their colleagues having life changing injuries or fatal injuries.

It sounds like both sides didn't react well and it escalated unnecessarily.

Sounds like your DS2 panicked . He is a 17 year old boy and sometimes they overreact The police officers are supposed to.be the professionals and the adults but I imagine they were maybe a bit heavy handed as young males are rarely treated politely by the police.

Op. It may not.be fair but it is real life. Teach your sons how to be polite to police officers even if they are scared. Even if the police start of unfriendly and heavy handed ,it is.best to.cooperate and stay calm, cool. Say very little unless responding to a direct question. Too many protestations of ' I haven't done anything'. don't help

The police would have a hard job trying to explain it as a child protection issue. Children can be out unaccompanied by an adult from much younger, and in any case one of them WAS an adult.

I hope your sons have learnt about complying with the police from this incident. It's sad that the police and your sons couldn't have kept it more friendly.

If the police break down my door without lawful authority and find a cache of guns and mountain of cocaine that won't magically make it a lawful search and the evidence will still be inadmissible.

Are you American ? There's no Fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine in UK law. Unlawful evidence is quite admissible (some cynics might say preferred) in courts (certainly England, Scotland has some differing policies).

The thinking behind it, is that it's unfair to "the public" that a criminal can't be prosecuted because of a "mistake" by the police. And that if a persons rights have been breached, they have an avenue for redress in a civil court.

That's not to say courts haven't excluded unlawful evidence (the Colin Stagg case being one such case). But it's not automatic.

Exposure to a lot of court cases reveals that it seems the police have quite incredible senses of smell, sight and hearing - along with quite vivid imaginations. One of the best cases being an officer who "heard" a baby crying in a house which prompted a search. Unfortunately for our plucky super-hearing officer, not only was there no baby, there was also nothing whatsoever to then charge the suspect with. Off course no action was taken, despite the householder winning a civil claim.

No I wouldn’t have taken my hands out of my pockets. Why would I on a random persons instruction?

No I wouldn’t have taken my hands out of my pockets. Why would I on a random persons instruction?

Because they had identified themselves as plain clothes officers and shown ID!!

I stopped caring when you referred to the officer as the man !

Which could have been fake. Around here for eg, you can get a fake Id for teenagers for around £60-80. So no I wouldn’t unless they’d been in uniform. Why is that so hard to understand??

And I’m that terrible law abiding parent who has refused to get them fake id before anyone comments!

I’ve been stopped by plain clothes officers as a teen with a group of mates. We thought it was some dirty fuck getting out the car to pee up a wall. Might of even said as much back then too. We all have fake names and address and agreed to move along.

But we where in a large group actually just laying and sitting on the floor so hardly up to much. We easily outnumbered them and it could of been quite dangerous for them. We semi complied.

If it had of just been me and say Mellisa no way would we of been polite or stuck around for a search by some plain clothes “possibly” police officer. Not a chance.

Call back up and Taser me or handcuff me and take me to the station where I know it’s real police officers and I can grab a hot chocolate. The cells anit too bad here.

Sorry but I would say your son had something to hide based on the fact he didn't co-operate and panicked when they came to the house.

Sorry about your son's insomnia - has he tried melatonin?

Which could have been fake. Around here for eg, you can get a fake Id for teenagers for around £60-80. So no I wouldn’t unless they’d been in uniform. Why is that so hard to understand??

Because it goes like this. There are two options. Either:

A). That ID is REAL and you’d better take your hand out of your pockets and comply with a shouty police officer’s command.

or

B) That ID is FAKE so you should take your hands out of your pockets in order to defend yourself against what might very possibly be coming next (ie, an attempt to rob/assault you).

Either way, only a Class A nitwit would stand around with their hands in their pockets when confronted with a shouty adult male late at night in an isolated area.

As for the ID being fake, a uniform could be fake too. Is the average member of the public sufficiently au fait with the niceties of Police Scotland garb that they could 100% spot a knock off version?

Because they had identified themselves as plain clothes officers and shown ID!!

and explained the reason for the stop and search ? Before attempting to search ?

Sorry but I would say your son had something to hide based on the fact he didn't co-operate and panicked when they came to the house.

Probably best you're not a police officer then, really.

and explained the reason for the stop and search ? Before attempting to search?

We don’t know because apparently the “minutae” was disputed by the rather excitable son and shouty officer.

And OP hasn’t been back to the thread. Probably sleeping off the exertions.

I can't believe this situation has happened and your first instinct is to complain over the polices behaviour. Not bollock your son for being rude and swearing, but the police for doing their job. A normal reaction to police is being polite and compliant, not kicking off. Also a 17year old is hardly a child. So he didn't 'manhandle a child'. He used physical restraint on a man ,(adult height etc likely) who was behaving aggressively and refusing to comply with a reasonable and lawful request.

Your son was being a twat. I suggest rather than coddle him and blame nasty police, you look closer to home as to why things escalated. Your son isn't innocent. I'd also recommend that if you. Live in a. High crime area where police are doing undercovers operations, two young men going for midnight walks might not be a great idea. Well, it's fine if they respond respectfully and properly to police. If they respond with aggression then the late night walks aren't good. It seems like ds1 behaved properly and it was ds2 who was a idiot. Ds1 has insomnia, so ds1 goes on the walks. I'd look closer to home as to why your son doesn't respect authority

Haven't read the full thread but it's no bloody wonder the country is in the state it is when kids don't respect authority.

We've recently had a police officer killed on duty in the UK and you think that your son's behaviour is acceptable?!

If they are stopped and searched they NEED to cooperate.

I’m very stubborn Butchy & as I have a walking stick in my other hand I would have used that if pushed to defend myself.

’m very stubborn Butchy & as I have a walking stick in my other hand I would have used that if pushed to defend myself.

But this lad doesn’t have a walking stick and both hands were in his pockets.

I'm just back from the police station to request a search receipt as @Nicknacky suggested. The desk PC couldnt find a log and suggested that I came back tonight when they were on shift.

On the ID, the female police officer showed both DSs her badge immediately. According to sons the man flashed it at them as he approached (this is disputed by the policeman) but I dont think the boys were in doubt that he was police by the time the search occurred.

I do agree that DS2's response wasnt helpful, but I think its understandable for someone to be a bit spooked at being approached in the street late at night and patted down. I think the onus is on the policeman - as an adult, and a trained public servant to deescalate the situation when DS2 started backing away during the search, given that there seems to be no clear reasons for why the search was conducted in the first place.

I was initially told that they were stopped because they were acting suspiciously, when I asked how they were acting suspiciously, I was told there had been a number of break-ins in the area, when I questioned what this had to do with my sons, he then moved on to it being a welfare issue.

Your DS reacted badly. I don't know that makes him entitled. He might just have been frightened and unsure how he's supposed to react.
I think, having slept on it, you'll probably realise there's no cause for complaint. However I would ask for the search report (it may throw some light on why your older DS has started taking late-night walks) and I'd sit down with both DS and explain to them how they should react when stopped by the police.
If you've never had any interactions with the police, it can be scary and you can be confused about your rights. Make sure they know how to behave if it happens again and stress to your DS how guilty he looked and how important it is that the police get co-operation and respect.

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I can't believe this situation has happened and your first instinct is to complain over the polices behaviour. Not bollock your son for being rude and swearing, but the police for doing their job.

Lawfully, we hope.

Haven't read the full thread but it's no bloody wonder the country is in the state it is when kids don't respect authority.

Authority needs to start by respecting the law. Unless we're happy to descend into the sort of country where it's one law for them, and another for us ? A choice that is within the hands (if not minds) of people on this very thread.

God, at that age I would have fallen over myself trying to do whatever I was asked by a police officer. I never would have sworn at a police officer in a million years! My mum would have been scarier than the police officer if I'd behaved like that