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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

I've been told I dress too smartly at work...

734 replies

Appletina · 28/08/2019 13:05

and I've been told I need to dress more casually.

I tend to wear smart day dresses, or skirts with a top or blouse, from places like Hobbs, Reiss, Jaeger. I don't wear jackets or blazers or full on suits. I wear low heels.

I work with the public and apparently my dress sense could be perceived as intimidating and so I am to dress more casually... I think that's a ridiculous and patronising thing to say about the great British public!

AIBU to continue to keep dressing as I am?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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LolaSmiles · 29/08/2019 16:08

Genderfree
They've still had the option to tell people the most important detail to the situation: who made the comment and in what context?

Regardless of many of us having different opinions on what constitutes a reasonable dress code, I think we would all agree that her respond to the comment would differ based on who said it. I also think we would all agree that office gossip and bitching is best ignored with no further actions, but a comment or guidance or advice (depending on how it was phrased and context) from a manager would require a different response.

QualCheckBot
Unless there is a dress code that is unfair to women, I don't think it's fair to suggest it's women having to put up with X y z at work or fear the consequences.

I think any employee working in any organisation is wise to adapt to the norms and codes of the organisation they work for, including level of formality on dress. That's for men and women. It's part and parcel of organisational culture, working as a team, sense of collective identity and brand: these things are complex.

Someone I went to university was always the one who made a huge fuss over tiny issues or non issues. They did the same in the workplace and then they'd always comment about how unfair life was to them. They're a nice person, but dear me they were so obsessed with digging their heels in, not seeing why they should do X and not Y (even for ease within a team or team cohesion) that they found themselves routinely on the edge of things. A more sensible and mature person would have realised that some adaptations from people in the workplace help things run smoothly and being the person who says "but technically these are sandals not flip flops" (different situation same principle) isn't conducive to being approachable and getting on with people on a professional level.

flowery · 29/08/2019 16:11

”Here’s your free education, which you (a) won't understand and (b) could have looked up yourself.”
Ooh thanks. Love being patronised.

”Any dress code must form part of the employee's terms and conditions of employment.”
Wrong. There is no legislation saying that a dress code has to be contractual. Plenty of employers have dress codes (and myriad other rules and guidelines) which aren’t contractual.

”Any dress code must be justifiable, legal, reasonable and non-discriminatory. There must be a legitimate aim to it and it must be and the dress code requirement must be necessary to achieve that aim.”

No. It has to not be discriminatory. If it is potentially discriminatory, then it has to be justifiable, etc etc. But if it’s not discriminatory, there’s no need to be able to demonstrate a legitimate aim etc.

“I don't see how an employer could prove, on the balance of probabilities, that the wearing of a Hobbs dress or a skirt and top (as long as decent) transgressed a reasonable dress code for a legitimate aim.”

Assuming no discrimination, what claim would the employee be making which would require a tribunal to rule on whether a Hobbs dress met a dress code or not? How on earth would that ever end up in front of a tribunal?

”Dress codes for men and women don't have to be the same but they must be equivalent.” Um. Thanks for that. I was asking for justification for saying employers aren’t allowed to impose dress codes other than in the event it’s discriminatory. Strange how this hasn't been forthcoming...

”Employers cannot go around dictating what women wear because they do not like their choice of reasonable clothing.” Can they “go around” dictating what men wear? As long as they dictate what everyone wears, to a similar degree, of course they can! You may not like what they are ‘dictating’, but as long as there is no discrimination, they can do it.

”The requirement must appear in the dress code so as to form part of the contract of employment and even then, it must be a reasonable, non-discriminatory requirement.”

Again, why do you think a dress requirement must be contractual? Managers make all sorts of requests, requirements, instructions that aren’t contractual. Otherwise everyone’s contract would be the length of the bible.

”The unilateral comments towards the OP are so potentially indirectly discriminatory on grounds of sex that the employer is treading very dangerous territory.”

Ah you obviously know far more about the OP’s workplace than the rest of us. Personally I have absolutely no idea what the employer requires of men so I wouldn’t dream of just assuming there is discrimination involved.

”The choice of clothing is clearly suitable for the given workplace and its difficult to think how the employer could justify such objective, appearance based comments to a female employee.”

Why are just you assuming they wouldn’t make a similar request of a man? All she’s been told is to dress a bit more casually! That’s it! This isn't having to wear heels on reception at PwC!

” FWIW Flowery you are approaching this from the wrong angle. It is not up to the OP to prove the employer's comments to her wrong, it is up to the employer to justify them in law.”

No. An employer doesn’t have to provide legal justification for any instruction they give! How ridiculous would that be? I wasn’t asking about discrimination, but if the OP felt this might be discrimination, she’d have to show that the requirement might have been discriminatory and the employer would have to then show otherwise.
But in general, if the OP felt her employer’s action broke whatever mystical law it is you seem to think states an employer can’t impose a dress code, she’d have to be able to identify which law had actually been broken.

”If the OP then were to suffer a detriment in her employment as a result of this arbitrary requirement, that would constitute unlawful victimisation under the Equality Act.”

No. Only if the requirement was discriminatory. If it wasn’t, then it wouldn’t be ‘victimisation’.

”You are also confusing the law not being applied correctly with the law itself.”

Silly me, getting all confused. I’d better seek an immediate career change eh? But before I do, I won’t waste my time researching what mythical piece of legislation governs dress codes (other than the Equality Act), because I know it doesn’t exist….

QualCheckBot · 29/08/2019 16:18

LolaSmiles Someone I went to university was always the one who made a huge fuss over tiny issues or non issues. They did the same in the workplace and then they'd always comment about how unfair life was to them. They're a nice person, but dear me they were so obsessed with digging their heels in, not seeing why they should do X and not Y (even for ease within a team or team cohesion) that they found themselves routinely on the edge of things. A more sensible and mature person would have realised that some adaptations from people in the workplace help things run smoothly and being the person who says "but technically these are sandals not flip flops" (different situation same principle) isn't conducive to being approachable and getting on with people on a professional level.

Such as the sort of person who would nitpick an employee over their wearing of day dresses and skirts, blouses and tops?

Flowery since you don't understand how a contract is formed, and are unwilling to find out, its pointless trying to discuss this with you sensibly. Please tell me you don't work in HR...I've got a horrible feeling you do. Generally someone has to mop up their mistakes!

QualCheckBot · 29/08/2019 16:20

Or possibly a paralegal. Anyway, please go and educate yourself on the basics of contract formation.

For the love of god...!

Alsohuman · 29/08/2019 16:23

Are you as rude as this is person @QualCheckBot?

Genderfree · 29/08/2019 16:26

Are you legally qualified Flowery.

QualCheckBot · 29/08/2019 16:29

Alsohuman Are you as rude as this is person @QualCheckBot?

In my line of work, being abrupt and to the point is something that gets you more jobs and more money. In fact, being aggressive in the workplace (in the appropriate setting) is something that is positively encouraged.

ownerofdlurcher · 29/08/2019 16:30

My hairdresser once commented that having employees was a nightmare.
I think I am starting to see her point.
Why spend your time trying to make money (for yourself and to pay your employees) when you could be in discussions with lawyers all day over reasonable requests made to employees.

Genderfree · 29/08/2019 16:32

“Up to you if you believe me or not, but I would caution you not to assume anyone saying an employer “can’t” do something actually knows what on earth they are talking about...”

Yes Alsohuman because Flowery is always so polite.

Asta19 · 29/08/2019 16:36

I’m surprised this debate is still raging on despite the scant info provided by the OP. The fact is, people looking at OP may not know specifically that her outfit has come from Hobbs or Reiss but most people can tell quality clothing from more affordable high street. If you are working with a large group of people on low incomes then absolutely yes, it can create a barrier. First impressions do count and if OP is well dressed, maybe with a more formal way of speaking etc then people on the breadline from deprived backgrounds will immediately judge her and think “what does she know”. I would hazard a guess she is something like a social worker, probation officer, maybe works in a job centre. Something along those lines. Having worked in a similar field, yes we are told to “dress down”. It’s just how it is, the same way you’d be expected to “dress up” for other jobs.

But ultimately it still comes down to who said it to her. If it was a colleague then ignore them, if it was the manager then take it on board.

Appletina · 29/08/2019 16:44

It was a senior colleague, but not a direct line of report.

OP posts:
Genderfree · 29/08/2019 16:47

No Asta she has confirmed she does not work work with vulnerable people so I don’t think she works in any of the professions you’ve mentioned.

Genderfree · 29/08/2019 16:48

Have you checked for a dress code op? Do there’s dress in a similar fashion?

Iamthewombat · 29/08/2019 16:50

Brace yourself, OP. You will now be instructed to obey this person without question.

It’s funny, the number of posters who have formed the view that you must dress and behave like Alexis Carrington (Joan Collins’ character in Dynasty for anybody under 40). Choosing to ignore that you are wearing smart casual dresses, skirts, tops and, yes, cardigans from the high street rather than shoulder padded suits, scarlet lippy, 5 inch heels, diamonds and pencil skirts. Whilst smoking a sobranie in an ebony holder (got a bit carried away there).

Genderfree · 29/08/2019 16:56

Others

ChangeItChild · 29/08/2019 17:00

I think that certain in lines of work, dealing with the public, you could be perceived as overdressed and intimidating. It totally depends on your job though.

Do you dress more formally than your bosses for example? That may be seen as a bit off?

I'm not sure the relevance of mentioning the brands (Hobbs, Reiss, Jaeger) do you 'look down' on colleagues wearing a business suit from Next for example? Have you made reference to where you shop etc and that may have annoyed this colleague and that's why they've commented?

Genderfree · 29/08/2019 17:04

Problem is many on here seem to think employers wouldn’t be legally in the wrong unless there actions amount to discrimination but it just not true (yes flowery I’m looking at you).

Here you go:-

A claim under the Protection from Harassment Act 1997
(A claim for harassment under the Equality Act 2010)
A claim for constructive dismissal under the Employment Rights Act 1996
A claim for failing to protect your health and safety under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974
A claim for negligence under the common law

Iamthewombat · 29/08/2019 17:06

See, OP? Now it is your fault for admitting to where you shop. Which entirely justifies this senior colleague singling you out to tell you to dress less smartly.

To help the poster who mentioned it: the OP tells us what brands she wears so that we can form a view on the style, quality etc. of the clothes. Nothing odd about that.

Iamthewombat · 29/08/2019 17:08

And again with the ‘you must not dress better than your bosses’ nonsense.

pumkinspicetime · 29/08/2019 17:11

Ultimately OP you will be smart enough able to look round the rest of the workforce and see if your clothes are a fit with the rest of them. If they are no further thoughts needed. If they are not your choices are either continue to attract negative attention with what you wear but choose to do so knowingly or change what you wear.
You get to pick.

ownerofdlurcher · 29/08/2019 17:12

Appletina- do you, hand on heart, think they are being unreasonable bearing in mind how your colleagues look?
If so, perhaps discuss their reasoning/ your reasoning with them.
If they are not being unreasonable, and you do look out of place, why not just go along with their request?

Doyoureallyneedtoask · 29/08/2019 17:14

My guess is you work in healthcare.

If you are dressing in clothes that make your clients feel uncomfortable and that they may not be able to relate to you, then they won't open up to you which means you are not doing your job successfully.

Which is more important to you? Looking a certain way or relating to people?

I agree that it isn't nice to be told you aren't dressing correctly but there is always a dresscode wherever you work. I worked in a corporation and people dressed for the job they wanted next. In a not for profit role, that type of dressing is inappropriate.

Iamthewombat · 29/08/2019 17:21

She’s already told us that she doesn’t work with ill people.

She is wearing dresses with cardigans. Smart casual. As has been asked several times on this thread, who are these people who are intimidated by dresses and cardigans and why should the OP be required to pander to it if she is reasonably, professionally and decently dressed for work?

herculepoirot2 · 29/08/2019 17:22

I'm not sure the relevance of mentioning the brands (Hobbs, Reiss, Jaeger) do you 'look down' on colleagues wearing a business suit from Next for example? Have you made reference to where you shop etc and that may have annoyed this colleague and that's why they've commented?

I think it’s because it’s pretty obvious when someone has spent £400 on a suit versus £40. They look smarter.

Alsohuman · 29/08/2019 17:23

@Iamthewombat, maybe because her clothes aren’t appropriate for her working environment? This has been spelt out for you God only knows how many times.

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