Self ID women being asked to volunteer in Devon Rape Crisis Centre *Triggering - rape*

[Theendofmyrope]

AIBU to think this is just fucking insane? Is this how it is going to be from now on? As the parent of a rape victim I feel beyond angry. Is no place safe for women now?

Bye FFS... it’s been nice knowing you (in anticipation of a deletion there 🙄)

Our "narrow definition" happens to be the one shared by English law, specifically Section 1 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, in which A rapes B if A penetrates B with A's penis. Be aware that he/him/his pronouns refer to both sexes in English legislation.

Yes, but anyone can make up their own definitions for words now. If ‘woman’ can mean whatever you want it to mean, I guess ‘rape’ can be redefined too, facts and laws notwithstanding.

Catnip - 'You might be surprised about trans men, I like some trans women, they often look pretty much indistinguishable from from Cis men'.
You seem to think that women on Mumsnet don't know much about life. Why is that?
Cis is a banned word here. I'm not generally in favour of policing language, because it does show people for who they are. Understand though that many women find it insulting. We are not a sub category in our own sex.

They may well do on camera on their insta accounts - but in real life, they don’t. Human nature and radar is a wonderful thing.

I have no problem with this. I don't think anyone is using their genitals to counsel so it will make no difference. I am sure there is very tight volunteer oversight. Perhaps some of you outraged ladies could put your time where your outrage is and volunteer yourselves?

I don't think anyone is using their genitals to counsel so it will make no difference

Jeezo. So a woman who has been raped - by a man - shouldn't have the choice of being counselled by another woman?

Trans women are raped and murdered every day.

In Brazil. In the UK, TW are the demographic least likely to be murdered and are more likely to murder than be murdered.

They are entitled to care, and if another trans person is there they can talk and open up more.

Which is an admission that TW need specialist services. What I said about this on another thread: Being raped as a female is physically different from being raped as a male and the societal and cultural context of cross-sex rape is different from same-sex rape. I'll add to that that the societal and cultural context of raping a trans person is different from that of raping anyone else. Trans people themselves have talked about how being raped affects their dysphoria, how is a service set up to be female-only meant to understand and help with that? TW need specialist services of their own and we are encouraging them to set them up. I would argue that it's transphobic not to encourage TW and TM to set up dedicated rape services.

I think that having transwomen available to counsel transwomen is fine. As long as no women should ever be expected be counselled by them. Where we get the problem is when transwomen demand the right to treat women who may not want a male bodied caregiver, and then screaming discrimination when the woman objects.

I worked for a charity for years thank you very much - and one part of this was with the women of a refuge. It’s not a validation centre for people who will most likely make a hell of a lot of the women there - desperate women - feel unsafe and vulnerable.

I have no problem with this.

I do. I was suicidal over this.

I don't think anyone is using their genitals to counsel so it will make no difference.

There's a techie poster on FWR who has described the penis as a "rape weapon" and the vagina as an "unpatchable vulnerability". This is actually really important when hiring a rape counselor. You are asking a woman, with the "unpatchable vulnerability" to tell a rape weapon owner about her experiences of being attacked with a similar rape weapon. Can you see now how saying TWAW in the rape centre context is completely tone-deaf?

Analogy: Someone survives a school shooting, they have the right to be counselled by a counsellor who isn't carrying a (concealed or visible) firearm because knowing or suspecting that their counsellor is packing heat will retraumatise them. From the rape survivor's POV, all males pack heat FROM BIRTH, regardless of gender identity.

I am sure there is very tight volunteer oversight.

There was tight oversight in the prison service, yet Karen White sexually assaulted four women. I don't trust "oversight", I trust keeping rape weapon owners away from female victims.

Perhaps some of you outraged ladies could put your time where your outrage is and volunteer yourselves?

Sure, I'll just put my house on the market and try and get a job in Devon and move hundreds of miles. My concern is not just for this centre, it's the trend and precedent for other rape centres.

@mumsnet Can please we keep the anti-trans invective in the appropriate forum so that the rest of us can avoid it if we wish? It’s hard enough already without it spilling over into AIBU.

Uncomfortable questions are being asked, but rather than engage with these you prefer to try to close down the entire debate.

These are entirely familiar tactics that every woman will recognise.

Once again. The Devon centre is NOT for females only. They already have male users

The volunteers also have to go through vigorous screening. Then there's ongoing training lasting several months. During the training they are NOT allowed to deal with people.

As a user of various services the screening is invasive. You are asked lots of questions. They need to ensure that it's the correct service for you because waiting lists can be lengthy to be assigned someone. They also need to ensure they assign the correct service. If a person is referred by a 3rd party some details will already be known.

The Devon centre has been seeing males for sometime. There has been no adverse reaction to this. So regardless of whether the male ID's as male or not, they are already in the building.

This is yet another example of men who self id as women and then have access to female only spaces. In this case a homeless shelter for women fleeing domestic violence in St Louis. These women are vulnerable, have experienced sexual assault and violence at the hands of men yet they have no choice but to share their space with men like Danielle. A woman was probably denied a place at this shelter because of him.
Rape crisis centres who permit access by men who self ID as women to vulnerable women and girls are treading a very similar slippery slope.

Templetonstunafish I am not an 'outraged lady'. I'm a woman and I object.
Ps - you don't have any idea of what women on here do or what our expertise and experiences are.

Ive asked for the above to be removed. Wrong thread. How? Don't know.

Springtrolls No adverse reaction? No, women will self exclude.
I assume that men are treated as men.
Women should not be forced to say that someone is the sex that they are not or risk approbation for not wanting to be counselled by a male.

DRCC it seems deals with all rape victims but they have been clear about being a woman, a female run center with women volunteers. Wonder why they are using this new style of language.

They are seeking to recruit volunteers within a rape crisis centre NOT a rape crisis centre for women.

Surely it’s obvious to anyone one with half a brain cell, that they would seek to meet the needs of as many demographics as possible to provide the best support to their users. That, I’m sure, would include volunteers of different races, faiths, cultures, ages, abilities, sex, sexual orientation AND (yes folks I’m going to say it) gender identity.

When accessing counselling for sexual violence any centre worth it’s salt will ask the service user if they would prefer xyz person to undertake their support as they may have a broader depth of knowledge and understanding of the complexities of and individuals experience (ie honour killings after rape).

Are people honestly so up in arms that a victim/survivor of sexual assault may wish to access support from a person they most strongly identify with?

For shame!

Ok Pinky - but “Self identified women” - why that language - they are not asking for men - why not? I’d still like to know why they have changed their language around women/female volunteers

Because they run different services for different groups?!! Good grief, is it really so difficult to grasp?

The centre support ALL victims/survivors of sexual assault.

They understand that some people will find it easier to access support if they have a like minded/experienced person to provide that support.

The centre run volunteer drives to recruit ALL different types of people to meet the needs of their service users, INCLUDING women in a women’s only space ALONGSIDE the support they offer to others.

It’s really not that complex.

Anyone can commit rape, a penis is not a pre-requisite and I'm concerned if this is your narrow definition.

Absolutely wrong. Under current UK legislation only a man can commit rape!

And seems they were a women/female only run group - until yesterday. People are asking why and what they mean by “self identifying women”. What has changed and who instigated it.

Because they’re not looking for Male volunteers, perhaps they have enough Male volunteers at this time.

Neither are they looking for women volunteers.

They are looking for FI women (non binary, gender neutral, TW, fluxuating binary) a broad spectrum of people they do not fall into traditionally held views of man/woman. That’s why this language. They don’t want men or women, they want those who fall elsewhere within those categories to support others who fall elsewhere within those categories.