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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to dislike Extinction Rebellion

317 replies

Azeema · 26/08/2019 16:07

I live in farming village. We are getting in harvest.
But today on village green extinction rebellion has decided to have a party with drums, loud music and a megaphone. Green is right opposite care home for elderly.
I asked them, who are you protesting? There are no corporations here. Everyone is aware of environment as we grow your food.
They have been very rude, refusing to turn down noise despite disabled residents with migraines suffering.
They made me very upset talking about how England could grow own food and have lower footprint if not so many people (I’m an immigrant) looking at me like I should leave country.

OP posts:
Lumene · 27/08/2019 08:22

There are more ecological alternatives to capitalism...like socialism for example but people wont vote for it.

Yeah that pesky democratic process eh?

NotAnActualSheep · 27/08/2019 08:58

I think it is an interesting question, though, as to whether a capitalist economy is necessarily environmentally damaging, or a socialist one would be any better. Not sure the socialist countries I know of have done any better in terms of minimising carbon emissions or living in a more eco-conscious way than the "West".

I think the issues with our current democratic system is the 4/5 year election cycle, and politicians are generally unwilling to put in place long term policies that could have a perceived short/medium term negative effect on the electorate's standard of living/quality of life. But the massive moves needed to meet net zero 2050 to comply with the IPCC targets will almost certainly involve changes that we are not all very pleased about. They will either cost us money (directly, or through higher taxation), or a change in our lifestyle, or be seen as an imposition by the state or whatever. So governments are either taking things very slowly, with all the requisite consultation of stakeholders...with the complaints they aren't moving quickly enough or are pandering to industry (A. K. A. companies that employ people and pay them so they can afford to eat, to make things or sell things that people need/want). Or coming up with a policy with backlash from various interested parties, which is then backtracked on... Presumably a very left wing government could scrap all the consultation and just do stuff - but I don't think that would go down well in the UK, somehow, and I'm not at all sure we could trust them to do the "right" stuff. And realistically we're not going to get wide scale democratic acceptance of any system change in anything like the necessary timescales.

I think the current emphasis on the climate emergency is good at getting people to consider that we may need to change our current expectations. But when it comes down to it, we are not going to suddenly accept moving to a barter economy, giving up our takeaway coffees or being happy about having a windfarm on our doorstep just like that, no matter how much we are aware of the problem.

DoomsdayCult · 27/08/2019 09:03

“The Earth’s climate has been gradually cooling for most of the last 50 million years. At the beginning of that cooling (in the early Eocene), the global average temperature was about 6-7 ˚C warmer than now [1,2]. About 34 million years ago, at the end of the Eocene, ice caps coalesced to form a continental ice sheet on Antarctica [3,4]In the northern hemisphere, as global cooling continued, local ice caps and mountain glaciers gave way to large ice sheets around 2.6 million years ago [4]

Over the past 2.6 million years (the Pleistocene and Holocene), the Earth’s climate has been on average cooler than today, and often much colder. That period is known as the ‘Ice Age’, a series of glacial episodes separated by short warm ‘interglacial’ periods that lasted between 10,000-30,000 years [5,6]. We are currently living through one of these interglacial periods. The present warm period (known as the Holocene) became established only 11,500 years ago, since when our climate has been relatively stable. Although we currently lack the large Northern Hemisphere ice sheets of the Pleistocene, there are of course still large ice sheets on Greenland and Antarctica [1]...During parts of the previous interglacial period, when polar temperatures reached 3- 5°C above today’s [7] global sea levels were higher than today’s by around 4-9m [8]

About 55 million years ago, at the end of the Paleocene, there was a sudden warming event in which temperatures rose by about 6˚C globally and by 10-20˚C at the poles [9] Carbon isotopic data show that this warming event (called by some the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum, or PETM) was accompanied by a major release of 1500-2000 billion tonnes or more of carbon into the ocean and atmosphere. This injection of carbon may have come mainly from the breakdown of methane hydrates beneath the deep sea floor [10], perhaps triggered by volcanic activity superimposed on an underlying gradual global warming trend that peaked some 50 million years ago in the early Eocene. CO2 levels were already high at the time, but the additional CO2 injected into the atmosphere and ocean made the ocean even warmer, less well oxygenated and more acidic, and was accompanied by the extinction of many species on the deep sea floor. Similar sudden warming events are known from the more distant past, for example at around 120 and 183 million years ago [11,12].

In total, human activities have emitted over 500 billion tonnes of carbon (hence over 1850 billion tons of CO2) to the atmosphere since around 1750, some 65% of that being from the burning of fossil fuels [13,14,15,16,17]. Some of the carbon input to the atmosphere comes from volcanoes [18,19] but carbon from that source is equivalent to only about 1% of what human activities add annually and is not contributing to a net increase.

In the coming centuries, continued emissions of carbon from burning oil, gas and coal at close to or higher than today’s levels, and from related human activities, could increase the total to close to the amounts added during the 55 million year warming event – some 1500 to 2000 billion tonnes.”

References

1 Zachos, J.C., Pagani, M., Sloan, L., Thomas, E. and Billups, K., 2001, Trends, rhythms, and aberrations in global climate 65 Ma to present. Science 292, 686-693.

2 Miller, K.G., Wright, J.D. and Browning, J.V., 2005, Visions of ice sheets in a greenhouse world. Marine Geology 217, 215-231. 12 Barrett, P. J., 1996, Antarctic paleoenvironment through Cenozoic times—a review. Terra Antarctica, 3, 103–119.

3 Cooper, A.K. and O’Brien, P.E., 2004. Leg 188 synthesis: transitions in the glacial history of the Prydz Bay region, East Antarctica, from ODP drilling. In Cooper, A.K., O’Brien, P.E. and Richter, C. (eds.), Proceedings of the Ocean Drilling Programme, Scientific Results, 188. Available from
www-odp.tamu.edu/publications/188_SR/VOLUME/SYNTH/SYNTH.PDF

4 Maslin, M.A., Li, X.S., Loutre, M.-F. and Berger, A., 1998, The contribution of orbital forcing to the progressive intensification of Northern Hemisphere glaciation. Quaternary Science Reviews 17, 411–426.

5 Lisiecki, L.E. and Raymo, M.E., 2005, A Pliocene-Pleistocene stack of 57 globally distributed benthic delta O-18 records. Paleoceanography 20 (1), PA1003.

6 Jouzel, J., Masson-Delmotte, V., Cattani, O., Dreyfus, G., Falourd, S., Hoffmann, G., Nouet, J., Barnola, J.M., Chappellaz, J., Fischer, H., Gallet, J.C., Johnsen, S., Leuenberger, M., Loulergue, L., Luethi, D., Oerter, H., Parrenin, F., Raisbeck, G., Raynaud, D., Schwander, J., Spahni, R., Souchez, R., Selmo, E., Schilt, A., Steffensen, J.P., Stenni, B., Stauffer, B., Stocker, T., Tison, J.-L., Werner, M. and Wolff, E.W., 2007, Orbital and millennial Antarctic climate variability over the last 800 000 years. Science 317, 793-796.

7 Otto-Bliesner, B.L., Marshall, S.J., Overpeck, J.T, Miller, G.H., Hu, A. and CAPE Last Interglacial Project members, 2006, Simulating Arctic Climate Warmth and Icefield Retreat in the Last Interglaciation. Science 311, 1751-1753.

8 Kopp, R.E., Simons, F.J., Mitrovica, J.X., Maloof, A.C. and Oppenheimer, M., 2009, Probabilistic assessment of sea level during the last interglacial stage. Nature 462, 863-867.

9 Zachos, J.C., Dickens, G.R. and Zeebe, R.E., 2008, An early Cenozoic perspective on greenhouse warming and carbon-cycle dynamics. Nature 451, 279-283.

10 Zachos, J.C., Pagani, M., Sloan, L., Thomas, E. and Billups, K., 2001, Trends, rhythms, and aberrations in global climate 65 Ma to present. Science 292, 686-693.

11 Kemp, D.B. et al., 2005, Astronomical pacing of methane release in the Early Jurassic period. Nature 437, 396-399. 24 Jenkyns, H.C., 2010, Geochemistry of oceanic anoxic events. Geochemistry Geophysics Geosystems 11(3), Q03004.

12 Archer, D. et al., 2009, Atmospheric Lifetime of Fossil Fuel Carbon Dioxide. Annual Review of Earth and Planetary Sciences 37, 117-134.

13 Houghton, J., 2009, Global Warming: The Complete Briefing. 4th edition. Cambridge University Press.

14 Andres, R.J., Marland, G., Boden, T. and Bischoff, S., 2000, Carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuel consumption and cement manufacture, 1751-1991, and an estimate of their isotopic composition and latitudinal distribution. In Wigley, T.M.L. and Schimel, D.S., (eds.), The Carbon Cycle. Cambridge University Press, 53-62.

15 World Resources Institute 2010, Climate Analysis Indicators Tool (CAIT): cait.wri.org/

16 Metz, B., Davidson, O. et al., 2007, Climate Change 2007 – Mitigation of Climate Change. Contribution of Working Group III to the 4th Assessment of the IPCC. Cambridge University Press.

17 Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Centre of the US Department of Energy – cdiac.ornl.gov/

18 Williams, S.N., Schaeffer, S.J., Calvache, M.L. and Lopez, D., 1992, Global carbon dioxide emissions to the atmosphere by volcanoes. Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta 56, 1765-1770.

19 Marty, B. and Tolstikhin, I.N., 1998, CO2 fluxes from mid-ocean ridges, arcs and plumes. Chemical Geology 145, 233-248.

Nicetablecloth · 27/08/2019 09:46

Doomsday thank you that's really interesting. I have a gloomy take on our prospects as a species but am hopeful that the planet can shake us off and emerge in a different age. What I find unbearable is that we're taking all the wonderful wild life and incredibly beautiful places down with us 🌎😔

malificent7 · 27/08/2019 10:06

My point being that if people vote for parties that dont give a shit about the environment...e.g: the tories, Trump etc then there is very little point bleating on about a climate crisis.

malificent7 · 27/08/2019 10:08

It just demonstrates that most people also don't value the environment and are only now waking up when it seems that humanity might go extinct...we are all complicit and all to blame for this

malificent7 · 27/08/2019 10:13

And it's the fact that we will all moan if we have to curb our meat intake, plastic consumption, flights etc demonstrates that we are the cause of this ...not just the nameless faceless corporations and governments. People don't want to take responsibility.

DoomsdayCult · 27/08/2019 10:14

Yes, it’s sad that species go extinct in cycles with the Earths climate change. Just like it’s sad that the butterflies all die every winter. Winter-Summer is a microcosm of the larger tens of millions of years cycles the planet goes through. It is the natural cycle of life adapting.
Sure, humans are affecting this cycle a bit but honestly we’ve had at least six mass extinctions due to global warming (greenhouse phases) before humans even existed. A seventh one was going to happen no matter what we did/do. Life will continue.
Humans will probably continue too though this latest warming period. We were around during last inter-glacial period 26,000 yrs ago in which the Earths mean temperature was 3-5C warmer than now and all we had were stone tools, fire and our feet to migrate us away from rising sea levels & feed ourselves.
The XR philosophy centers on this sort of “golden years” ideology that the climate we had in say 1700 pre-industrial was some sort of stable state that would never have changed if it were not for us.
Now, I’m not saying let’s light up every forest and pollute like there’s no tomorrow. We still need to continue to deploy & develop technologies and energy that is light on the Earth.

timshelthechoice · 27/08/2019 10:20

Oh, bullshit! We are not 'all to blame' and 'all complicit' in this! Plenty of people are fucking stuck in life with very little to FA choices just trying to hang in there. Guilt-tripping, victim-blaming, virtue signalling and preaching will achieve nowt.

Nicetablecloth · 27/08/2019 10:22

I totally agree Doomsday but the massive difference of course is that 7 billion of us cannot just up sticks and move.

DoomsdayCult · 27/08/2019 10:25

Flights are interesting. If you look up the data. The entire aviation industry (so cargo, passenger and military planes) accounts for 2% of CO2 output. The biggest contributor is Electricity generation at 24%, most of which is used on heat.
Anyway, planes spew the majority of their CO2 on take off. After they reach crusing altitude, they actually emit about the same as a sedan car. So the thing with flights is that at a distance of around 450km, it is actually less Kg CO2 per passenger than driving. (It depends on car model, plane model..but there are calculators on line where you can calculate carbon footprint). Private jets have so few passengers that it calculates out to around 4,500km on average. So, While criticism of private jets is warranted, i think passenger planes are being unfairly demonised as international flights generally involve distances above 450km. Of course, not taking the trip at all unless necessary is the greenest choice but it is not true that flying is either a major contributor to CO2 or always has the highest CO2 footprint.

Nicetablecloth · 27/08/2019 10:29

I think clothes production and waste is the worst CO2 producer isn't it? Worse than shipping and aviation combined.

DoomsdayCult · 27/08/2019 10:36

@Nicetablecloth
Well yes, it’s been awhile since I looked up this statistic so this is probably outdated, but the majority of humans live along the coast. It was 75-80% when last I looked but that was ages ago, it is probably different but still a huge number of people live on the coasts.
They own property on the coasts.
Businesses have insured said properties.
Technically, humans could move as sea levels rise. We have done many times over when Doggerland between UK and France sank, when the Mediterranean Sea formed, when the Bering strait formed, when the capital of Egypt Alexandria sank beneath the waves....lots of examples in prehistory and history.
But a lot of people face losing a lot of money. A lot of giant insurance companies too. They would rather buy into a myth that sea levels are not supposed to fluctuate, that we are causing it and therefore can fix it and so demand their land (cash money) be protected by the governments (taxpayer cash money).
The poor fisherman who lives in a grass hut can keep moving that hut uphill and beaching his boat uphill.
The multi-millionaire with a beach mansion in the Bahamas not so much.

DoomsdayCult · 27/08/2019 10:39

@Nicetablecloth
Yes, different reports slice and dice the data differently for CO2 output. Activities overlap.
I do agree clothes production is one of the worst industries....

DoomsdayCult · 27/08/2019 10:47

I think what troubles me I should how X-RAY as a doomsday cult view and indoctrinate children. To them
-having a child is the worst thing you can do for the planet

  • children then believe their very existence is killing the Earth and pick your favourite cuddly and cute species (polar bears, penguins, whatever)
  • the zero hour of 2020 or we are all doomed to collapse as a civilisation during the following fifty years in a MAD MAXesque dystopia tells children, why bother with school or uni? Why study biology...all the animals will die and we are all going to die anyway.
DoomsdayCult · 27/08/2019 10:53

@NotAnActualSheep
It’s no coincidence that the worst CO2 emitting country is a mostly socialist country (China) and the one country that is net zero is very capitalist (Iceland)

wigglybeezer · 27/08/2019 11:41

That is a load of b*ks @DoomsdayCult , Iceland may be net zero but that's because of a few geographical peculiarities, like having access to geothermal power and it being too far north for intensive agriculture and too isolated for heavy industry, not to mention small population, nothing to do with being capitalists.
You are comparing apples and pears, you'd have to compare China with India to make a reasonable comparison.

CatherineOfAragonsPrayerBook · 27/08/2019 11:51

timshelthechoice

Hear hear! I could not agree more.

QualCheckBot · 27/08/2019 12:28

DoomsdayCult Humans will probably continue too though this latest warming period. We were around during last inter-glacial period 26,000 yrs ago in which the Earths mean temperature was 3-5C warmer than now and all we had were stone tools, fire and our feet to migrate us away from rising sea levels & feed ourselves.

Interesting. While I don't argue that the planet is warming, I do find the hysteria about it, based on the notion that it can and should be stopped, illogical. Temperature fluctuations are normal. We are in a relatively cool period - I have said this previously on here but there was a Norse settlement on Greenland from 950 to the 14002s which subsisted in decent numbers based on ancient agrarian farming techniques. In other words, they were able to grow enough winter fodder for their animals so as to self sufficient AND to send surplus crops back to Norway. Then the climate cooled, and the settlement ended. But apparently its all hysteria because it might be possible to grow crops again in Greeneland soon with modern farming methods.

I also can't help noticing that the typical climate change activist is an urban dwelling not particularly environmentally friendly individual, who likes to tell people who live in a more green way what to do. It might be ignorance, or stupidity, or a combination of the two. It might be grandstanding, assuaging of guilt or the ability to feel better than people they usually feel inferior to. I don't know.

I am very green, but don't boast about it or tell others what to do. There are so many little things that we could do to help the environment, but they don't involve attention seeking marches, demonstrations and insulting people on social media. Things like cycling or walking instead of taking the car. Not dropping litter on the roadsides. Protecting endangered species instead of hunting them -and in this I would distinguish between the whales that the Faeroe Islanders hunt and the seals that the Inuit kill, which are no endangered, and which are about as environmentally neutral a method of providing food for humans as is possible. The animals get to live wild until they die, they are not captive, they are not killed when they are less than a year old, they are not transported long distances for slaughter and they are not made to wait in an abattoir to have their throats slit while hearing their companions killed.

But its very fashionable to hate on the Faeroe Islanders, while ignoring the supermarkets and halal abattoirs down the road.

DoomsdayCult · 27/08/2019 12:59

@wigglybeezer
Let’s address the mass migration of 4 million people from Venezuela due to socialism then shall we? The way to combat climate refugees is not to introduce an economic system that just adds the migration numbers by several million.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-36319877

DoomsdayCult · 27/08/2019 13:12

@QualCheckBot
Absolutely it is mass hysteria. I agree wrt a XR climate activist. I think too a lot of it is about them assuaging guilt for being hyper-consumers as most of them are urban elites. Protests seem to be their form of absolving themselves of their eco-sins. Hence the self-righteous proselytising that goes hand in hand.
Now, there are lots of good scientists, engineers and inventors who have contributed & continue to contribute to the green movement over the past century. I find it galling that XR activists will pull attention whore stunts like glue themselves to electric trains and then have the gall to claim credit for advances by these true eco-warriors like the development of plastic eating bacteria.

NaviSprite · 27/08/2019 13:17

I didn’t need the XR to tell me about our environmental crisis and think that their methods actually harm their ‘movement’ more than aid. In that, those who are screamed at by a large group of protestors who clearly aren’t so hard up that they can afford to take large stretches of time off work, who have no idea of who their audience is or what they do in their day to day, are going to alienate rather than inspire.

Throwing comments about number of children to a family who already has those children, demanding they have less or even suggesting that people shouldn’t have kids at all - when the rest of the world does not conform to this ideology and have multiple children - feels a bit like they’re placing the whole blame of the state our planet is in - on a small fraction of people like it’s solely their responsibility to change! The right to protest is one thing - this does not equal a right to yell abuse at people who are just trying to go about their daily lives. I have been face to face with some XR in the last year who told me I was incredibly selfish for having two DC... ‘they’re twins’ I answered (quite nonplussed so couldn’t think of anything wittier) and it still didn’t convince them otherwise. Next time I might ask them which one of their children/nephews/nieces/siblings (whatever) they were going to sacrifice to their cause Hmm

HelenaDove · 27/08/2019 13:27

"As for racism, yes they are a white, middle class movement. Protest is a form of exerting power over others. I believe the OP experienced the racism she experienced. The criticism about her opinion on the effigy burning of grenfell as not being racist is baffling to me. Especially how HelenaDove seems to think a bonfire effigy of grenfell did not affect the OP when the OPs demographic were the #1 victims of the actual Grenfell tragedy. Who is she to tell that demographic what they must find offensive"

I didnt say it didnt affect the OP So quit gaslighting. I said she didnt seem too bothered about racism until it affected her PERSONALLY. Which seems to be the case in the UK for lots of things Its an "im alright jack" stance. Thats what i was saying.

wigglybeezer · 27/08/2019 13:31

@DoomsdayCult where did I say I was a socialist? Still think comparing China and Iceland isn't valid. I don't think a pure market based system is going to save us, at least not in a form the majority find acceptable, I doubt many of us are prepared to move to Mars with Jeff Bazos and Elon Musk, neither would pure socialism but the countries usually deemed most happy/ successful/stable are social democracies where the market is held in check by government controls. People should still have choices but the scope of those choices would have to take in to account the environmental impact.

HelenaDove · 27/08/2019 13:31

Is clothing waste a concern of Extinction Rebellions. Why arent they demonstrating outside the schools that change their uniform every five minutes.