AIBU to ask you to clarify "reasonable" in my dispute with a church and noise?

[alittlequinnie]

My DH and I have a meeting next week with the Council and representatives of the Church next door.

We have had trouble with noise issues for the past four years.

The result of the meeting will probably be defined by the Council's idea of what you should "reasonably" expect as noise from a Church.

Would any of you be able to take the time to suggest what you would suggest would be "reasonable" to expect if you lived next door to a Church?

I don't want to give too much info yet because it needs to be an unbiased opinion.

To help though the Church is a very modern one - built in the 1980s / 1990's and a Methodist Church.

I'd be so grateful if you could let me know what you would expect if you lived next to a Church.

Bloody hell, OP, that sounds hellish. Yes get it all over Facebook, yes go to your MP and the local media, yes take your complaint to the ombudsman. Do the same about the parking: if the council can get some parking fine revenue out of it they might shift their arses.

I'd also get my DJ equipment up and running, tell the Methodist minister and his congregants exactly what I'm going to do and why (a leaflet one Sunday morning, maybe, handed to everyone as they leave church?) and then blast their next Sunday service with death metal at top volume to see how they like it.

I can never understand why people think it's okay to make loads of noise and disturb others.

I live next door to a church but do not suffer anything like the noise levels you have to. Whilst the church was there when you moved in, effectively it has new "tenants" who are behaving in an anti-social manner and hiding behind the church to excuse the inexcusable. You did not choose to live by a nightclub, which it now appears to be, so you are not unreasonable at all.

I have issues with bad parking, loud door slamming, engine noise from the obsessive church gardener who lives there in the summer, loud people visiting graves and people who call at my house asking where Great Auntie Ednas plot may be or asking to use my driveway to park in. When funerals and weddings are on I cannot get in and out of the village, cones generally alert me. If I can't get back in I go and park on the Residential Home's car park and just let them know. They are also noisy on shift changes but generally good neighbours.

The only time I have had a word with the vicar was the bizarre grave digging at 11 pm onwards, really creepy. It went on for three nights running waking up the kids so I gave the vicar a call. She put a lovely note through my door - apparently she knew nothing about it and told them in no uncertain terms to confine their job to daytime hours. She was very considerate and kind and I do hope you are afforded the same respect in your meeting.

It might be worthwhile finding out who the Stewards of the Methodist church are, and contacting them directly. Stewards oversee the church on behalf of the congregation, and, whoever is making the noise, this must be affecting the standing of this Methodist church in the local area, which should be of concern to the congregation. I imagine the minister isn't seeing much beyond balancing the finances of the church.

This Methodist church is certainly not being a 'good neighbour' to those around it - that might be worth saying in the meeting. Inflicting unbearable noise on neighbours doesn't say much for their Christian mission.

Get your stereo in the garden and blast some satanic black metal on a loop, as loud as you can.

Can't believe the Council hasn't done anything about your problem. Even pubs and clubs now have signs at the door telling their patrons to be respectful of the neighbours and not to shout on the street.

You have all my sympathy.

I think you have been far too reasonable.

Your local press will love this.

The Daily Mail will love this.

Put it all over Facebook and Twitter and get everyone you know to share. Share the noise if you can.

Good luck.

Firstly I’m a bit surprised about the renting of another church. It’s generally very important for SDA’ers to have their own church. To the extent people go to great lengths to give $$ for ‘their’ church to be built before financing anything else in life not strictly needed for survival.

I’d say think yourself lucky it’s only Saturday’s. Yes, it’s generally very loud and busy. Think of it as instead of going out to cinema, pub, to see a band, to visit friends, fitness class, film nights, watching sport on big screen etc all of this is usually done at the church and spreads out not only all day Saturday (including lunch as you say), but generally most nights as well. Add in band rehearsals weeknights, youth groups, visiting speakers, visiting churches (socials), use of church on Sundays for misc activities such as kids bday parties, weddings and then weekdays for things like playgroups etc mean a whole lot of noise 7 days so you seem to be getting off lightly.

In my experience the churches have been in more isolated locations ‘buffered’ from the general community but that’s changing as housing creep moves residential in closer and leads to tension and clashes. Not the same situation you are describing though with the renting of someone else’s church for a day.

Contact a solictor and sue them for your daughter's loss of earnings in relation to the piano teaching

That's a good idea.

Would your neighbour consider this, do you think? She must also be past herself due to the stress if, as you say, she cries her eyes out all the time. The two of you really need to stand together regarding this, but it may be that she is so stressed she can't cope with the battle any more, poor woman.

You are entitled to quiet enjoyment of your own home - the situation you describe is ridiculous. I wonder if a council member is part of this SDA church? I can't understand how they are getting away with it all the time.

Have you tried ringing the police? I don't recommend this lightly , as I think they have enough to do, but this is a disturbance of the peace, I would think, and therefore actionable.

I'm sure a local MN posse would be prepared to go to their services and start speaking in tongues - largely foul ones!

Attack it from all angles - you have been very reasonable so far.

Taking on board what someone upthread said about SDA being likened to a cult, with some very dodgy teachings. Can you establish a few key points on this, and ask someone senior in the Methodist organisation if they are happy for their Church to be used to spread these anti-Christian ideals?

Your local councillors and MP?

Good luck!

Thanks again for all the additional replies.

When I first started reading the replies I thought it was going to be that I was being unreasonable but with more information passed over it seems to be that "most" people think it is an unacceptable level of noise.

I have often thought about stopping people in the street and asking them their opinion and videoing it for the Council - you often see people pointing and commenting on the noise and crowds of people.

I have considering campaigning about it on Facebook and tagging the SDA and Methodist Church but was waiting until I see what the Council say.

Incidentally I posted the photograph of the parking I have posted on this thread on my local Facebook page but it was never approved so didn't go live.

I agree with everybody who has said that we and our neighbour need to stand firm together - I am convinced it is only once she complained too that the Council were forced to take it up officially.

I have no clue otherwise as to why it has taken so long.

Luckily my husband is extremely intelligent and articulate and knows all the laws and has fantastic notes of all the meetings we have had and the measures we have tried to take.

I am hoping that in the meeting the Minster says his usual "it's only singing and music" and the SDA say "it's up to them what they do in the Church" and then my husband comes in with factual no arguments evidence.

They use all sorts of arguments as to why they should carry on - sometimes say we are against religion and don't "respect the Church" and sometimes they say we are racist and only complain because they are black.

It has been difficult to deal with - one particular day they were so SO loud and the preaching had gone on for hours and hours - it was 5.30 and I was gardening - I had to stop myself from walking in with the secateurs and cutting the cable to the mike! ... in fact the only reason I didn't was that I was not completely sure I would get an electric shock from it!!!!

Given your update re the SDA, YANBU!! This would also drive me crazy and to tears. I hope you get some resolution, like the fuckers change venues. You really need a copy of the letter you mentioned or to find out who wrote it.

I’m with you OP. I lived close to a Methodist church before, not close enough to be bothered by it, but close enough to be aware of how bloody antisocial it was. I have some experience with SDAs too and would want nothing to do with them!

We have up until recently been house-hunting. One was seemingly perfect, perfect street, perfect area, crappy enough to be doable but not needing structural changes. All of that. Looked on streetview etc before viewing but thought the building at the end of the street was just offices or something. Turns out it’s a Methodist church. No way. Dream house became an absolute no no.

I’d be doing as many PP suggested, and complaining and speaking to anyone who will listen about how it’s affecting you. I have so much sympathy for you. We live somewhere with terrible noise issues now, and it is quite genuinely detrimental to our mental heath. I can’t wait to move!!

I wonder if a council member is part of this SDA church? I can't understand how they are getting away with it all the time.

I wondered this as well. No other group or business would be allowed to get away with this disruption. Unless it's the council not wanting to "offend" religious groups as I mentioned upthread.
But as someone else said - stuff that. There are loads of things they can do to miminize the noise nuisance but somehow they think they have God-given right to do what they want without having to consider any one else.

I don’t think 56 dB(A) is excessively loud but in the context of your situation - normal residential area with low background noise levels, the extra activity/late night parties that are occurring, and most importantly the disturbance to you, how your sleep and normal daily living are affected, then it is a problem.

What would Jesus do?

Well I don’t see any “love thy neighbour” from the church!!

BS 4142 and the Environmental Protection Acts.

I'm wondering whether it would help if the neighbour was part of the meeting as well.... or provided a written statement about the effect the noise is having on her.

Definitely wait till the meeting with the council before trying some of the pressure-raising tactics suggested here. If the council issue a noise abatement notice, you are on the way to problem solved.

I think you should get all your gay friends round and have a huge party at the time of the next service. Blast Glad To Be Gay on a loop and sing along loudly in your garden.

I’d be getting some legal advice. With the SDA’s attitude and the proven issues, it could be possible to get some sort of injunction or restraining order type arrangement.

It’s a damned cheek that you’re accused of being anti-religion when they’re behaving in a most un-Christian manner. When they shout abuse, film it as proof.

It’s a damned cheek that you’re accused of being anti-religion when they’re behaving in a most un-Christian manner.

And they also accused her of being racist!!!
Wonder if that's why the council are reluctant to do anything.

I would expect bells ringing every hour and on the half hour but not to hear the service.

have you been to the Diocese?

We haven't been to the Diocese or attempted to find anybody higher up to speak with than the people we have already been dealing with.

This is probably an error on our part but it's been really difficult to work out who is in charge and who to talk to.

When we go over on a Saturday (sometimes all of us including our neighbours) and ask "who is in charge" they are very sketchy with the answers. They probably don't want to tell us who is in charge in case we complain higher up.

It's ever so difficult and it's really intimidating - can you imagine one woman going into a Church full of 100 or so people all having a GREAT time and asking them to stop/tone it down a bit? They don't respond well.

There are huge other issues with parking but Council say that is for the Highways Agency

In our area it is the council who employ traffic wardens, they happily give out enough tickets outside schools - why not a church? I didn't think the Highways agency would give a shit about a residential cul de sac, I thought they were motorways only. So I don't think the council are being totally honest about that either.

We live 5 doors away from a CoE church and apart from a bit of parking at Easter and St Georges day parade, and the bell twice a day on a Sunday it's not noticeable - and they have youth clubs, toddler groups and a full electric band for services - which practices in the evening as well. Our RC church has an all day alcohol licence and very bad parking but there's no music noise at all. I don't think you are being unreasonable - I was all ready to say you were but really, really you are not.

OP, you are too nice. The council and Methodists have treated you appallingly. It's time to fight dirty.

Contact any, preferably all of your local councillors. Invite them to come round to yours when the next service is on. Invite the local press. Be pleasant and polite and offer refreshments. Then ask them (if they can hear you) what they think. Explain, or better still, print out and give them a time-line of everything that has happened with the SDAs and ask what THEY are going to do for you. Emphasise that Sundays are not a problem.

Next time there is a service, go and take photos of all the cars. Feed their registrations into that .gov.uk site where you check if they are taxed and insured. There's bound to be some that aren't. So call your local plods. Hopefully when you call 101, the noise will still be going on and they too will hear and decide that it's a good way to rock up and claim some fines. You need to be the squeaky wheel - make lots of noise and complain regularly. Good luck

OP, if they won't tell you who to escalate this to within their church, I'd go higher, even if it's national spokespersons etc. and work down from there. Stress reputational damage for their churches.

This sounds horrendous. I have had a similar situation with a local charity and they were obstructive and rude. Thankfully I moved and the problem was solved, but I still get really stressed about it years later and worry about it happening again here.

For the people upthread asking if you moved in after the church was built-it doesn't matter, if the noise is unreasonable then it's unreasonable, regardless of who was there first.

I think you need to stop engaging with the people who you have spoken to already, they sound absolutely awful and you are getting nowhere. I would contact the higher ups at head office with a full history of all the contacts you have had with the locals, and use social media too. I would also think about legal advice as this is having such a bad effect on your life. Unfortunately a lot of these churches are semi independent and don't have much of an official structure and tend to have the mentality of 'god says it's all ok so we don't need to follow the rules', but you are wasting your time with the local staff.

Also insist on a response from the noise people at the council and the same re the parking. Don't get fobbed off, just keep being the squeaky wheel.

As a last resort you could buy some speakers and play the loudest, swearyest girl punk you can find. These idiots have zero respect for anyone despite their godliness, and sometimes you have to fight dirty. They sound horrible. Good luck.