AIBU to ask you to clarify "reasonable" in my dispute with a church and noise?

[alittlequinnie]

My DH and I have a meeting next week with the Council and representatives of the Church next door.

We have had trouble with noise issues for the past four years.

The result of the meeting will probably be defined by the Council's idea of what you should "reasonably" expect as noise from a Church.

Would any of you be able to take the time to suggest what you would suggest would be "reasonable" to expect if you lived next door to a Church?

I don't want to give too much info yet because it needs to be an unbiased opinion.

To help though the Church is a very modern one - built in the 1980s / 1990's and a Methodist Church.

I'd be so grateful if you could let me know what you would expect if you lived next to a Church.

I'd suggest that 'normal' church activities as for the first 10 years were acceptable.

Amplified sound is not acceptable above a certain decibel level and after a certain time of night. Large numbers of noisy people arriving after a certain time of day aren't acceptable either, or if they block your access in any way.

Most churches try and operate as good neighbors. I wonder if they realize just how loud and annoying this group is (and it sounds like mostly just one particular group).

Op reading this lots of ideas have come to mind, so going to list them in no particular order...

• legal insurance - check to see if you have it and if you can use it to send legal letters if they are needed. Will be much cheaper than paying a solicitor yourself and you’ve already paid for the service. And apparently use of the service doesn’t affect premiums in the same way that making a claim does (but I don’t know this for sure so check first!)

Use all possible local and parish councillors - those for where you live and those responsible for environmental services and any other titles that could be useful. Also your MP.

• Make sure you have plenty of recordings of the noise made by the Methodist church during services and other activities so that you can show that is a reasonable noise and although you are occasionally aware of it, it’s not a problem so you were expecting noise levels to remain the same rather than increase so significantly and that given the Methodists had established a given reasonable noise level for a church then it would be reasonable for the church to install a noise limiter as previously suggested and for both churches to operate at the same levels.

• talk to the environmental health department and ask for their advice. Given the noise is so loud in your house it must be significantly louder in church where I’m guessing nobody will be wearing ear defenders - thereby damaging their aural health - and more importantly their kid’s ears. Somebody must be in charge and have decided on these levels and others must be ‘working’ there and exposed to these levels. So maybe they could come out and do some assessments with a view to charging them for breaking noise regulations.

• ring whoever is responsible for children at the council and put in a safeguarding complaint against the sda - for failing to protect the hearing of their DC. And maybe for them letting kids run loose where they are in danger of being hit by cars /etc.

• talk to your local community police officer about the situation and see what they can suggest, particularly given the problems with bad parking, revving engines, etc. Particularly like the idea of checking that all cars are legally registered. Maybe ring up for the first chat on a Saturday morning so that you can’t be heard easily so they get first hand experience if the frustrations you experience so regularly, even if you have to ring back lanother day to finish the conversation.

• work out a list of questions to present to the meeting before it gets down to the nitty gritty of your problems - what do they reasonably expect to experience in their own homes with regard to external noise... so should they be able to watch tv with the sound at its normal level or should they be expected to turn the tv up? If so, how high should they have to go? Should they have to wear headphones? Should they be able to have a conversation on your phone normally? Should they be able to use hands free? Should they be able to use Alexa/Siri/etc in the normal way or should they need to raise their voice? Should they have people having loud conversations outside their bedroom windows at night? Should they let a teenager next door to play their music (that they really dislike) at full volume from early morning to middle of the night every weekend - at what point would they complain? How loud and for how long? What would they do if a pub/restaurant wasn’t keeping to council approved guidelines for noise - at what point would they complain and expect council to step in? Should they expect to carry on a business from home which means being able to communicate with others for some of the time on the phone or in person - for example giving piano lessons, offering private chiropodist/massage/hair cutting etc

I’m sure there are plenty of other similar questions that you can think of and that people on this thread could contribute - but the idea is to get those at the meeting - particularly those who are not SDA members - to understand what it means to their life to not to have to worry about noisy neighbours and to get to think about any bad noise, regardless of source. Hopefully they will all have reasonable expectations so that you can point out that you are only asking for the same things that they too would expect and take for granted and then point it out again at the end of the meeting - that they would not be prepared to listen to it themselves.

• work out how loud you need to turn the tv up in your lounge/bedroom etc in order to listen to it to easily hear what is being said over the noise. Ditto the same for listening with headphones. See if you can find out what the effect of listening to the tv/radio/etc at this level would be if you have to do it at that volume for 10 or more hours at a single stretch at least once a week. I’m guessing that it will soon damage your hearing in the long term (which will become a vicious circle of things getting worse as you then been to turn the volume up more and more) - because you really shouldn’t have to risk damaging your hearing in order to listen to something you want to listen to in your own home, particularly when you really don’t want to listen to what you are being forced to listen to.

• remember to throw in the comparison to the torture methods used at Guantanamo bay etc of making people listen to really loud unpleasant noise that there’s no escape from. Don’t know if the figures are still around as to the levels of noise and type of noise they found to be effective but I think rock music was used some of the time if they are blasting anything that could be classed as that.

• make sure that you record the meeting on your phone so that there’s an accurate copy of what everybody says. Suggest that everybody else does the same too. If people don’t want to ask what they have to hide and why are they not prepared to ensure that the minutes of the meeting will be accurate? If they don’t want to do this then it shows that they are not at the meeting in good faith of the meeting actually listening to the issue and finding a solution for it. It’s not illegal to record a meeting given that they all know they will be recorded and they are also taking a copy.

It might take a bit of persuasion but it’s really worth it - for example when you said that they read out a letter but never gave you a copy - you would have a record of it Also say if pushed that you’re not going to throw it onto the internet willynilly but that you reserve the right to share some or all of it with relevant parties in the interests of sorting out this long running problem that has blighted your life (eg MP, environmental health, other council members etc. Just don’t mention the local journalist or Facebook page of support!). If they say written minutes will be enough point out that no, in a big meeting with lots of different sides, people mishear things or miss things or get spoken over or a different slant is added to words so things change and that if people are talking quickly somebody writing won’t keep up so they need to record it for the sake of professionalism.

• have a look on the garden law website to see if they have any afvice on noisy neighbours.

“The MM must take responsibility for his renters. He chose to let to them and he must deal with the nuisance caused.”

Just to repeat what I posted before, the minister is not solely responsible for this, it is a shared responsibility of the whole church council. Blaming it all on the minister is a “shoot the messenger” kind of response.

Having read all your responses, I think you may need to bring in some big guns. Write or call your local councillors and see if you can find one willing to fight your case for you. Look at young local amenity associations for the same. They'll be called something like the 'your home town'' society. Contact your MP and the local paper. I'd say this situation has gone way beyond a 'cosy chat'.

Although the Methodists may like the revenue, they won't like a lot of negative publicity.

Good Luck.

'your' not 'young'!

Do you have any cameras up OP on the outside of your property front and back so you can show the council the abuse you are suffering(I'm a Christian and there is no way on Earth I would want to get into heaven if there were selfish wankers like that allowed in)I don't know what they think they're playing at but they're behaviour is unforgivable.

Make sure you contact the Police about the illegal and dangerous parking every single time you see it and make sure you take pictures of it.

Complain,Complain and Complain some more,have you contacted your local MP to make them aware of what your all going through.

If it has effected you,your DH or your neighbors in such a way that you have had to visit your Dr because of it make sure you make the bloody useless council aware of that as well.

The best of luck I hope the council see sense and sort it out sooner rather than later for you.

Just read the full thread and OMG, you poor thing.

I’ve only had two lots of dealings with the SDAs. One was when I was a local councillor in London and they were using industrial units as a church with no planning or licensing consents.

It was a complete nightmare - I had everything thrown at me: I was racist, I was anti religion, I was discriminating against them alone (assured them I had no time for any religion in principle but this was nothing to do with religion).

The battle was still ongoing when I stopped being a councillor but I remember even the MP was scared of them! Deeply unchristian bunch.

The couple of SDAs I have met more recently did not change my opinion of them in general.

Definitely get your local councillor involved - bring them along to the meeting (I went to loads of noise meetings for local constituents) and your MP.

Good luck!

Could you start to phrase it that they are the ones that are harassing you - they know the problems and are completely ignoring them but actively doing it regularly and being horrible when you try to talk to them... and that they would have been closed down long ago if they were a pub or club etc, that you are not anti religion bit as the Methodists have shown it’s perfectly possible to run a church without making their neighbours suffer.

Also love the suggestions of playing a recording of the service at the same level you have to listen to it at through the Methodist service if the Methodist minster thinks that it’s perfectly reasonable ‘just singing’ to get the views of his congregation.

Are there any other houses that could also be affected by the noise even if not on the cup de sac? Definitely worth a Saturday walk to see how far you can hear the mouse outside to map it - if it can be heard 2-300m away outside, even if there are no other houses, then it all helps to build up the argument to show how ridiculously noisy they are being and how nobody else would be allowed to make that sort of noise without a license.

Oh you poor things - that’s dreadful.

I think, given the first 11 years was fine you have proven you’re not anti religion etc just anti -anti social bloody behaviour

You’ve been FAR more patient than me. FOUR YEARS.

I’d see how this meeting goes then I’d take it to SM,newspapers, and absolutely above their heads with the SDA & over the ministers head too.

That’s absolutely beyond acceptable!

Good luck!

It's not just people who suffer from this sort of horrendous noise pollution - animals, with domestic and feral suffer horribly, too.

There is no need for this sort of extended, very loud noise.

I would expect bells for 5 minutes once a week at 9.45am to call people to service. Unless there’s a disaster then I’d want them ringing for longer! Was the church there when you moved in?

*both domestic and feral, not with domestic and feral.

Ok. Read half the thread... get legal advice. It’s fascinating how quickly people suddenly find a way to solve a problem if they think they might get sued. And at this point you’ve not got much to loose.
Completely separately, we moved to a little village with a church - which we liked, as we go to church. And it was lovely and quiet: turned out, the village bells had broken a few years before. So... a few weeks after we moved in, they had new bells returned to the church, which was a surprise to us!. Which is sort of lovely, except they do have practice fairly late on a school night. Which is problematic for us. (Esp given we moved due to one of my children’s SEN).
We do end up going out that evening. But it’s funny the raised eyebrows we get for dragging small children out so late. Funny old world, innit?
& yes, it’s ok, we’re sympathetic to the community & the bells (even though it’s a bit annoying!). Your situation is completely different OP. Good luck.

Oh and don’t bother with the press (unless you can’t afford a lawyer).
But it may be worth trying your MP.

There are huge other issues with parking but Council say that is for the Highways Agency - not sure if I want to start with this or whether if we can sort the (illegal) parking that might mean they move on anyway

Interesting that your local council don't seem to know the law about this, what other laws are they unclear on?

To clarify, illegal parking is the responsibility of either the local council or the police - see this link to find out which applies in your area. It's not the responsibility of the Highways Agency,

I haven't RTFT but have read your OP and subsequent update.

It sounds awful.

How can they be so inconsiderate? Are the 'Elders' (I'm from Church of Scotland) not embarrassed and apologetic? The late night discussions and traffic etc are not on.

There are signs in pubs in residential areas asking people to be quiet when they are leaving - why not in this church?

I highly recommend recording and filming it if possible.

The first 11 years sound more like what you would (and should) expect.

Have now RTFT. Get a legal letter sent to them - and to the council. Show them you are not to be brushed off. Yes, am initial outlay but maybe you and some other residents can club together.

And surely something can be done about the parking on zig zags too?!

I think if it's in the day and it's a busy church what can you do? But you have a point past a certain time and from 11pm-7am it's really not on.

Haven't managed the whole thread. DH does sound systems for churches and events. It's not uncommon for a quiet church with a good building to hire it out to other churches.
They need a noise limiter slapped on them at the very least. I don't know about the parking and comings and goings because it's a clear nuisance but how I wonder how would they enforce it? . Is it on a main trunk road that it's Highways England?

If it was me, I'd be filing a case for nuisance asap, it seems like you have all the evidence you need.
I would also be filing a defamation claim against the person(s) who called you/your husband a racist.

You are well within the statute of limitations. I know it doesn't feel nice to sue a Church but you have been more than nice over the past few years and its gotten you nowhere. You have asked them to modify their behaviour rather than stop and they've treated you with contempt. Even if it doesn't end up going to Court, its a sure way to get the attention of the higher ups.

File a GDPR on the claims with the council you have reference numbers for and see what they did if anything.

www.methodist.org.uk/for-ministers-and-office-holders/governance/complaints-and-discipline/

Link to find out who to complain to higher up, although as it's not actually the Methodists that are causing the issue not sure what they'll do.

I was all set to go with the "well that's what you get when you move next to a church" brigade, but having read your updates I can't believe what you've had to put up with! Our church can be pretty loud and lively at times, but nowhere near to that level!

Contact environmental health. They will fit a black box in every room to measure the noise pollution and then you will have a leg to stand on.

I haven't read the thread but whilst churches might look home fresh and a bit Midsomer Murders they are usually the hub of communities and therefore busy... I would NEVER buy a house near a church for that reason.

I would expect very loud singing and testimony on a Sunday morning, plus 1 or 2 times during the week for worship. If the halls are rented out to accommodate a nursery or similar then I would expect the noise of children playing and singing every day from 9-3 but possibly 8-6.
I attend a baptist church - we make A LOT of noise.
Who was there first - you or church?