AIBU to ask you to clarify "reasonable" in my dispute with a church and noise?

[alittlequinnie]

My DH and I have a meeting next week with the Council and representatives of the Church next door.

We have had trouble with noise issues for the past four years.

The result of the meeting will probably be defined by the Council's idea of what you should "reasonably" expect as noise from a Church.

Would any of you be able to take the time to suggest what you would suggest would be "reasonable" to expect if you lived next door to a Church?

I don't want to give too much info yet because it needs to be an unbiased opinion.

To help though the Church is a very modern one - built in the 1980s / 1990's and a Methodist Church.

I'd be so grateful if you could let me know what you would expect if you lived next to a Church.

Bells are a given. Potentially weddings in the hall - ours has a strict no music after 11 policy as it's in a residential area (in line with LA guidelines) and it's fine

Wow sorry just saw update. That is awful - sorry you've had such trouble with them. They are just antisocial neighbours and YADNBU to be pursuing this. Good luck!

My family home is approximately 2 metres from the church (very narrow lane seperating the buildings) and church bells. Its an orthodox church and every Sunday morning at 7am I am shocked awake by the bells 😂 They are very loud and it's like you are in the bell tower.

Inside the house you can hear the church service and every funeral/wedding etc. Easter is especially brutal when the bells ring constantly. You can't talk or watch TV when they are ringing. There are also a lot of orthodox festivals and days of celebration. We are all used to it and only get annoyed if we are trying to talk or watch TV. The church has definitely been around longer than us! My great great grandparents were married there.

It's absolutely ridiculous and now they are shouting at you too.
If this was a normal next door neighbour - ie. a family or something - the council would have dealt with this before now.
I think they are scared because it's a church and worried about offending a religious group.
No group should be allowed to cause that much disruption every Saturday for so many hours. It means that you can't enjoy your home on a Saturday EVER because it's every bloody weekend. If it was a big service once a month with more people attending then it wouldn't be so bad.
I was about to suggest going to the paper with this but several people have just done this.

I think they are being incredibly selfish and have an entitled attitude. They could have the services non-amplified or at least at a low enough level so it can't be heard outside the church. They should be telling their congregation that they must park considerately and reminding them that it is an offense to sit with the car engine running. They should be telling them that there is to be no noise and loud shouting or beeping horns when they leave the building and that if people want to continue to socialize then they can do so quietly, inside the building then leave quietly, get in their car and drive off.
They should be telling the children that running around screaming is not on - playing with each other nicely wouldn't be a problem for you I imagine - you know, normal children playing noise.

There is loads they could be doing to minimize the nuisance to you but they aren't interested because they are entitled to behave just as they want (irrespective of whether they have listened to a 2 hour sermon about Christian teachings where love your neighbour and be considerate to others has been mentioned).

Unfortunately, I think some of these churches preach that they are the one true way etc. and the people are left thinking they are the chosen few and some of them end up thinking they are superior to others who do not belong to the church.

Keep on and on about this until it stops and if they start intimidating you, you can take it to the police.

Re methodist hierarchy.
Each church is in a circuit overseen by a superintendent who also has responsibly for 1 or more churches. So he/she would be first contact unless your minister is the superintendent!

Each circuit is part of a District overseen by a Chairman/woman so he/she would be your next contact.
This information would be on the internet.

56 dB inside your house is massive, the duration is significant, the frequency is regular and there has in fact been a change of use to a behaviour not to be expected of a traditional church. I would hope that if you can get those points across clearly, the council might uphold your complaint.

having read your update - MP and local press. Local press love sticking the boot in to the council. Get a journo round at the time of a 'service'.

Unfortunately I wonder if council are reluctant to intervene as it is a faith group (and I say that as a practising Christian). Agree with pp - MP and press if necessary. It sounds intolerable.

The (Methodist) Church will have a church council and they are the managing trustees, corporately responsible for running the premises within the rules of the Methodist Church. The minister will chair the church council, but he’s not really there to deal with property issues. He’s probably got other churches to care for as well.

Have you had any contact with other people from the Methodist church, e.g. the church stewards, property steward, lettings secretary? These are the people who should really be sorting out issues like this.

Does your meeting next week include representatives from both churches?

I think all noise would be reasonable as long as it stopped in the evenings.

You are really not being unreasonable. I bet none of them would like this by their houses. Totally unacceptable. Hope your meetings go well. Can you tackle the leader of their church and say you'll go to the newspapers? You may not want to but it sounds simply awful for you.

If the council refuse to take appropriate enforcement action following the meeting, I second escalating your complaint to the local government ombudsman.

They have a useful publication which you can use to help you set out your complaint about the council in a way that will ensure they become involved - I think this is it:
www.lgo.org.uk/assets/attach/1016/good-practice-2.pdf

I think you can also go onto their website and search for complaints they’ve dealt with about particular issues, so you could check out ones regarding noise complaints.

In the meantime, if you haven’t already, I would invest in a pair of very expensive (i.e. effective) noise cancelling headphones and, as part of your complaint, request the cost be reimbursed - at least this will give you some relief. I used to deal with LGO complaints in the past and, based on the information you’ve provided, this would seem a reasonable course of action.

You poor thing. It sounds awful. Time to get your MP involved and local press etc if need be. Also escalate it to the top of the Methodist tree. Why doesn't the daily mail pick up stuff like this from MN rather than sensationalist stuff?

To answer a few more questions:

*meeting is with us, council, methodist minister and a representative from SDA - we don't know who

• noise is loud enough that you have to keep turning up tv and impossible to watch tv with window open - you just can't hear it

*we actually have DJ equipment but nothing we can blast at them is ever going to cover the noise of 100 people

• we started amicably but they are absolutely sick of us now and can't understand our issue

• we have really struggled to find anybody above the SDA people we have spoken with or the Methodist Minister - they all just try to pat us down all the time.

• we haven't been to MP or paper or anything like that

*we have suggested measures they can take such as turning down the amplification - NOT amplifying the single preacher and not opening windows...

... the not opening windows is a tricky one because they say it is too hot - we asked over a year ago if they could look at portable air conditioning units etc to avoid disturbing the neighbours

*we are aware that there is SOMEONE above the group we have to deal with directly because one of the meetings we went to (I think it was the second one) the SDA we spoke with read out a letter from his superiors - the letter stated that they MUST not be annoying the neighbours in this way and this is not the message they want to send out - we have asked for a copy of the letter again and again but we have never had it.

• Council initially said things like "you should expect some noise" and then when we started to go out every Saturday to avoid it they said "if you are not in the house they can't be disturbing you" and also comments such as "you can't stop people worshipping in a place of worship".

*There are huge other issues with parking but Council say that is for the Highways Agency - not sure if I want to start with this or whether if we can sort the (illegal) parking that might mean they move on anyway

*The SDA and the Methodists are really keen for this status quo to continue and with only two people objecting they seem to think that their large number is enough to mean 100 -v- 2 means they "win".

• We have pointed out they would not like it at their homes and also pointed out that we have no control over it and that there is nowhere we can go to get away from the noise

*We have also pointed out that if it was a morning, afternoon OR evening service it might not be so bad - it's the 10 hours plus a day and EVERY Saturday that pushes us over the edge!

... also they swear up and down to us that they don't amplify anything.

However, we can hear individual piano notes really loud.

I got my husband to play my piano and walked around the parimater of the property to see if I could hear it and only when I stood 2 feet from the window that I could just about hear my own piano - this would suggest to me that they are lying about the amplification.

You can also hear a solo singer acapello inside our house - I would be pretty sure that it was amplified!

I read the OP and thought YABU especially with a Methodist church, then I read the update! Seventh Day Adventists, you have my sympathy.

A small community hall down the road from DM's house has been rented out by 7th Dayers, they are noisy, park wherever they like including other people's drives, the DC run around unsupervised.

No noise before 9am
No noise after 6pm.
Especially in a residential area.

I came on her thinking I was going to tell you that you were being unreasonable. However, the amount of noise you describe sounds intolerable. I live next door to a church on one side, and a school/village hall on the other and hardly hear anything

Here not her. Why can't we have an edit button on here?

I think I'd be tempted to tape the sermon and then go and sit outside the methodist minister's house and blast the recording back at him through an amp. See how he and his neighbours like it!

The other thing to do would be to post clips of the unbearable noise and illegal parking on Facebook and Twitter - copying in councillors, local reporters, the Methodist Church, The SDAs etc (I bet they all have Twitter and FB profiles these days). Hashtag NOISY FUCKERS.

I would raise a formal complaint against the council for failure to properly investigate. Once that complaint has been through their own complaints procedure then you can go to the Ombudsman. When you make the complaint cc your local ward councillors (invite them round too), the executive member who covers environmental health, the service director for environmental health and the chief executive

Contact your PCSO about the illegal parking

Contact a solictor and sue them for your daughter's loss of earnings in relation to the piano teaching

www.police.uk/crime-prevention-advice/anti-social-behaviour/

You’ve obviously got to be persistent to find someone to help you, the last four years are clearly having a very negative effect on your health and well being. The SDA right to worship doesn’t trump laws and bylaws let alone Christian values.

You feel harassed and distressed. They are rowdy and inconsiderate and flout parking restrictions and noise bylaws (from ASBO link above)

Take @DonPablo excellent advice, lobby local Councillors with your neighbour’s support, escalate above the church minister, contact local police/PCSO and press if you feel so inclined.

The noise of gatherings, services, comings and goings as pre the SDAs are all acceptable, excessive amplification, late night disturbance, hostility, rudeness and complete lack of consideration are not.

Make sure you quote the ‘its our church, we can do what we like line’ I sincerely hope they’re made to eat their words.

I think they are scared because it's a church and worried about offending a religious group.

So fucking what if they are offended. This lot sound like a load of nutcases I bet if a rock band was to play there rehearse etc the council et al would be up in arms and have you in court in no time at all.

Sod that the whole bloody lot of them i'm OK with freedoms to believe in whatever you like but I object strongly when theri religion or products therof are imposed on me as a nusiance and that included bloody church bells on a sunday morning.

The local mosque does noit have someone bawlling "come to prayer" anymore its now done with little radios very good of them:)