AIBU to ask you to clarify "reasonable" in my dispute with a church and noise?

[alittlequinnie]

My DH and I have a meeting next week with the Council and representatives of the Church next door.

We have had trouble with noise issues for the past four years.

The result of the meeting will probably be defined by the Council's idea of what you should "reasonably" expect as noise from a Church.

Would any of you be able to take the time to suggest what you would suggest would be "reasonable" to expect if you lived next door to a Church?

I don't want to give too much info yet because it needs to be an unbiased opinion.

To help though the Church is a very modern one - built in the 1980s / 1990's and a Methodist Church.

I'd be so grateful if you could let me know what you would expect if you lived next to a Church.

Just to add, in a modern church I'd expect their music to be lively and upbeat, and IME the music tends to be amplified.

I would expect full on raves and all night party's!

I’d expect daily use, so noise of people coming and going, especially if there’s a car park on site.

Toddler groups, holiday clubs and a twice weekly cafe happen in the church near me. They also provide a music session once a week for adults with learning difficulties which is always quite a volume but also sounds brilliant fun.

Then weddings, funerals and christenings so quite a large volume of people, and if a church hall is attached which can be rented out I’d expect parties too.

So when you really think about it, it’s quite a busy place with the potential to be quite loud at times.

People coming and going at various times for services, events and community things like brownies, classes etc
Various levels of noise from those things but not late at night other than very occasionally

I would expect church noise. Bells, people, music

We lived next door to a church hall and our house was accessed via the church car park - it was a nightmare. They were an extremely entitled group of people, having loud chats in the car park at 11pm after bridge or women's institute meetings, reversing into our wall and tutting when we told them off. The best one was the responses I used to get when I'd have a go at them for taking our bollard down and parking in our private parking space..."we didn't know we couldn't do that", "I'm a member of the church" etc etc.

Sorry about that, I needed to vent!

I think the key thing is whether the noise falls outside of reasonable hours; can you hear it above the sounds of you going about your life in your house; and is it avoidable noise? For example, car noises before and after church services are I think unavoidable, but church hall type discos, loud noises going into the latter part of the evenings are less so and the church should be more considerate.

Love thy neighbour and all that - they should practice what they preach!

Traffic, music, bells, building work, community events in the church hall (eg parties, youth groups, cinema nights, music rehearsals, exercise classes. Possibly noisy prayer/preaching. Occasional fights between family members at weddings/baptisms/funerals.

I would expect general noise during the day, something similar to a community centre or school possibly.

What kind of noise is causing you to object, and at what time of day?

We've lived here for 15 years so yes, obviously the Church was there before us!

For the first 11 years or so we had no issues. There are 7/8 events at the Church each week, including Karate, Cubs then weddings and funerals etc. There is a service from 10-12 each Sunday. Also a male choir practices on Thursday nights from 8-10 pm.

Until 4 years ago we used to hear people arriving and leaving 10-20 minutes before the service or event and if you were in the garden you could occasionally hear the conregation of the Church singing hyms on a Sunday morning - IF the skylight to the Church was open but you could never hear the male choir rehersing on a Thursday.

4 years ago the Methodist minister started to rent it out on Saturdays to the Seven Day Adventist Group.

Each Saturday from approx 9.30 am the congregation starts to arrive for the begining of the service at 10.00 am.

Throughout the day then there are approximately 100 worshipers coming and going for all the different events that happen on a Saturday, including eating lunch together. They leave generally at 7.30 pm.

The singing, preaching and bible study groups are all amplified - to the level that you can hear the singing and music notes INSIDE our house - even with the windows shut.

It's approximately 56 decibels in our garden and on top of the singing (which isn't just a couple of hyms - it goes on for hours) the congregation gather outside for hours - i.e from 2.30 to 7.30 each Satrurday, groups of 20-40 people chatting, laughing, shouting, 3 or 4 at a time on mobile phones and car pulling up engines runnign for 20/30/40 minutes at a time and often 3 or 4 cars together.

My house unfrotunately faces the church and our garden is on the side so in the garden you can hear every word that every person says - we only have a brick wall between us and the street - it is very similar to pub kicking out time but lasts for about 4/5 hours each Saturday. Always there are about 20 unsupervised young children running around shouting and screaming too.

In addition they use the Church for parties late and night and also they occasionally have all night services - when they leave at 5 am they are not in the slightest bit quiet - shouting to one another up and down the street and packing up cars, enginges running doors slamming etc.

The other night they unloaded two minibuses outside the Church under my bedroom window at midnight. They then hung around for 40 minutes phoning taxis, taxis arriving, laughing, shouting calling horns bibbing etc.

My husband went out and asked them to keep it down but they say it's their Church and not up to us to say what they do in the street.

So - unreasonable?

I'm worried about the fact that a lot of people have said we moved next to a Church because that's what they say - you moved next to a Church what do you expect - but we expected what we got for the first 11 years not what we have had for the last 4.

I live next door to a church, also a modern one built on the 1980's.
So from the noise aspect, obviously Sunday's there is service and lots of singing and general noise.
Some evenings I can hear singing, I assume practice as usually the same song/piece of music over again.
There is the occasional wedding, which creates more traffic than noise and same for funerals.
There used to be bell ringing (recording not actual bells, church far to modern for bells) every Sunday at 9am, didn't really bother me but I think people must have complained as I haven't heard it for years.
So, regards to noise, not too much and certainly doesn't bother me at all. I quite like having the church close, the vicar and family live next door and are lovely.
Sometimes traffic can be busy, but that's about the only criticism.
I can think of (and have had) way way worse neighbours who would think nothing of partying/shouting all night.

Ugh. I lived next to a church for a year and it drove me mad. Boys brigade band practice, choir singing Christmas hymns from September and hourly bells. Never ever again.

Oh, methodist hymns-they're the best!

We live next to a church (and church hall). We have the obvious noise associated with Sunday services (bells and the people arriving/leaving/chatting outside). Bell ringing practise 2 nights a week. The hall is hired out for things like toddler groups, slimming world, Pilates classes etc. They also do private hire so children’s parties and evening functions like sports club presentation nights or discos. Noise is generally finished by 11pm so no real bother to us.

A well used church will probably be in use most days for things like toddler groups, old people's lunches, maybe food Bank. Our church also hires a room out to the local midwives, the MP for his surgery, a knit and natter group and a coffee drop-in.
I suspect the church the OP is talking about has a PA system which is on the loud side.
When you say next door OP, how close are you? That would make a difference if you can hear the sound through the walls.

So, is it the Methodists or the Seventh Day Adventists that are the problem?

Could be lots if it's got a hall which is popular etc

Bell ringing and practice which can be late
Cars
Children
Weddings etc
People hanging around
Clubs and groups early morning to evening

I used to live next to a place of worship where they all arrived at 6am on a Sunday.

The 'up until 4 years ago' bit all sounds like perfectly acceptable noise. The 7th Day Adventists sound like they are awful and not very Christian.

I'd focus your complaint at the noise on the street through the night. I'd get a recording of what it sounds like in your house to play them. The rest is normal church activities.

Theres a Methodist church round the corner from me and I certainly wouldn't want to live next to it. Loads of groups in the evenings and theres pretty much something going on all weekend. Some have their wedding and wedding reception there so parties til late evening

I wouldn’t be happy about that.

I am a regular C of E church goer but I have quite a lot of experience with the Seven Day Adventist Church. My experiences have been very positive and I think that they are a fabulous group of people. However, their gatherings are typically pretty large and their worship style is very different to most Methodist churches. Also, they worship on a Saturday rather than a Sunday.

I do think it is reasonable for you not to have expected activity of the type you are currently experiencing when you purchase the house.

Are the local council aware of what is happening? I would hope that you could resolve it directly with the church but, if not, then there maybe some planning enforcement, in terms of permitted building use, that you could consider. It might at least be worth seeking their advice if you haven’t already.

To clarify - there are 7/8 events a week - none of which cause us any issues other than like a pp said - hearing a bit of singing when hanging out the washing.

The issue is the last four years of rental to the Seventh Day Adventists.

I'm really hoping that the fact that I don't mind all the other services through week will help to show that we're not a couple of intolerant muppets who live next to a Church but don't expect to hear a bit of organ music.

I moved next door to an Abbey. We had bells ringing every 15 minutes for 24 hours a day, never complained. The Abbey had been there for centuries. Bell ringing practise every Thursday for 2 hours, loved to listen to it. More traffic, I could hear the bells ring to call for services, I could sometimes hear singing. All reasonable as it's a Church that was there before me.

I rented a flat fairly near to a Seventh Day Adventist church so I feel your pain. The noise was unbearable - sometimes I used to wake with a start thinking people were actually in my flat. What was really upsetting was the attitude of the congregation. They really didn't care about the disturbance they caused in a residential area. Shouting at the tops of their voices, car engines revving, banging car doors - all this at 1am, 2am or later. The neighbours were so polite asking them to keep it down but it all fell on deaf ears. I moved after three months.

Sounds like you are not unreasonable. The noise before sounds reasonable, the seventh day Adventist’s noise sounds awful.

I think I would invite the Methodist Minister around for a chat. On a Saturday.