To urge you to teach your children to be genuinely inclusive, not just polite?

[gingerginger2]

My kids are back at school this week (Scotland) and after a summer of seeing them without the context of their peers it’s a sadness again to see them interacting with other children.

On their own, they are sweet, silly, funny, kind, playful, interesting, creative, chatty. They are part of the world, full of wonder and learning and play.

But in the context of kids their age, they are different. They both have learning disabilities and dyspraxia.

They don’t know this though, they don’t quite realise they are “different” yet. They are little, they learn slowly, despite the constant lessons from society’s exclusions. They run up to their “friends” in such a carefree happy way, eager to talk, play, connect. It doesn’t seem to occur to them not to.

And when they do they mainly encounter silence. Uncomfortable polite looks. Or polite confused monosyllabic mumbles followed by eager escapes into actual easy friendships groups. Or at best a short conversation in a humouring tone, a tone learnt by imitating the tones adults take with small silly children.

There’s not really any unkindness. There’s just a refusal to actually engage, to get to know, to connect. An embarrassment and unwillingness to spend time with my children’s lack of social skills, messy clothes, an uncomfortableness at their invasion of their personal space. So a brief hello before getting on with actual friendships and relationships and life. An obvious desire to politely not engage. A smile with the lips not the eyes.

I’m amazed they don’t seem to realise that they’ve been snubbed again. But they din’t Mainly. Learning disability means everything is hard to learn I guess. But it’ heartbreaking to see they just carry on and continue to fling themselves at people, wide open, encountering boundaries wherever they go. I worry that soon they’ll start to realise and feel the pain of these rejections.

I worry too that maybe they do feel the pain. Maybe it goes somewhere deep, and maybe they are learning day by day that people don’t like them. That society isn’t for them.

I hate it.

Please can you teach your children to be more than polite and kind to their peers with disabilities? Please can you urge them to actually get to know them, to actually connect and include them? Even when they are messy, annoying, noisy and a bit weird. Even then?

Not sure if it makes a difference that my friend has a physical disability, but it's a friendship the same as all my other female friends

🙄 Sorry but that doesn’t make you a hero. A physical disability is not the same as a mental disability with someone invading your space & making you uncomfortable. I wish people would stop comparing the two as if it’s the same.

If you feel uncomfortable around a physical disability you’re an absolute moron, a mental disability is different as you could feel unsafe or scared by their behaviour.

Because she’d have to be pretending right? It can’t possibly be that kids with SN have anything to offer NT kids when it comes to friendships, right?

Erm... We are talking about a situation where the NT child doesn’t want to be friends, and the OP is saying their parents should make them do so, or that the children should ‘connect’ anyway. So yes, in this situation, my child would be pretending. That has nothing to do with any statement about what non-NT children do or don’t have ‘to offer’. My DD may well have children with SN in her friendship group. I don’t know yet because she isn’t at school so we haven’t met them. 🤷🏻‍♀️

But most people with disabilities don’t touch people when they don’t want to, do they? I understand why you focus on that; it’s a reasonable objection. But your basis is your dd should walk away whenever she’s uncomfortable. What if she were uncomfortable because the other child was deaf or in a wheelchair? That’s not ok, right?

@nosauce what makes you think my DC have not been excluded at times and struggled with friendships? One has a lot

Even more reason why you’d have some empathy and feeling then for children with a disability who want to feel included.

I don't know what happened in your situation but it sounds like a very strange and unusual reaction from what you've said

Long story short, DD’s class did a single overnight residential in their last year. They had to pick a room mate. DD decided nobody would ever put a certain girl first, so not only did she do so (and misses on the chance to share with her best friend for the last time) but she went and spoke to the teacher to ensure she got her pick and the girl was actually chosen

Later in the year DD won the class award and then the “friendship” award. I overheard parent and friend in the loo bitching about DD winning everything and suggesting she had only been nice to get the award. The called her a “sly little cow”.

So yeah, I agree. Weird reaction and to be honest I’m gutted DD did it at her own expense and had an - at her own admission - a less good time.

@herculepoirot2

OP is not saying force your children to play with mine even if they have nothing in common/make each other uncomfortable etc. But rather, she's saying recognise my children are different but don't automatically exclude them based on their disabilities.

That isn’t quite my reading. I am reading that she thinks my child’s decision (hypothetically) not to be friends with hers is somehow in breach of her child's rights.

Right, I read it differently. I don't believe excluding someone based on disabilities is right. I also don't believe anyone has a right to demand friendship particularly where people are not getting along/have nothing in common.

I'm impressed that the kids at school are at least polite, it's hard OP. I was always taught by my parents to be polished and nice to everyone and that no one should be excluded. What I noticed was often kids are so competitive even within just games not just sports, that they don't seem to have the patience if someone can't keep up.

I've heard some really nasty comments towards my son from kids age 3/4. I understand that young kids don't have a filter, but to say certain things they have to have heard them from someone a parent or another child who picked it up from a sibling.

@SinkGirl same happens to my DS who's 3, he can't talk and whilst he tries other children can't understand him. It's hard because he tries to play with them and can join in. They seem to push him away once he tries to speak a bit ( single words, very poor pronunciation .) So it's a vicious circle, he can't get better with his speech if he doesn't use it.

But most people with disabilities don’t touch people when they don’t want to, do they?

Well OP did mention invading personal space twice

But most people with disabilities don’t touch people when they don’t want to, do they? I understand why you focus on that; it’s a reasonable objection. But your basis is your dd should walk away whenever she’s uncomfortable. What if she were uncomfortable because the other child was deaf or in a wheelchair? That’s not ok, right?

I wouldn’t be happy about it. But she has a right to do it. Her reason for feeling uncomfortable might be something the child says or does, not the fact that they are in a wheelchair. But according to the OP, my child doesn’t have the right to be polite and kind and walk away, because her children have SN. I don’t accept that.

Right, I read it differently. I don't believe excluding someone based on disabilities is right. I also don't believe anyone has a right to demand friendship particularly where people are not getting along/have nothing in common.

I agree. But I think the OP is absolutely demanding friendship.

Oh god that’s awful. I’m sorry but that’s just awful. How can you think that’s an ok way to be?

I have a good friend who is autistic. I like her straightforwardness and see it as a plus because I find the English "politeness" which basically means lying and being passive aggressive, a total mindfuck.
So I know from personal experience that being autistic is not a reason not to have a real friendship with anyone.
But there are plenty of NT kids my DCs don't want to be friends with. If they want to be friends with a kid with SN great, I will support that. But if they don't get on with an NT kid or SN kid that I am not going to force them to be friends.

I wasn't suggesting I was a hero Hithere

Just answering a previous posters question about who as adults has actual friends with disabilities. What an unpleasant person you are.

OP you won't get pleasant responses on AIBU where this is concerned (been there - sat outside school crying in the car seeing DD2 being socially snubbed yet again). What did happen in our case was that it turned out (well I knew it was) a LOT of it was being led by parents who didn't want their kids hanging around with a child who was "different" (DD2 has dyspraxia and verbal dyspraxia) - the ringleader decided to change schools and it was like bloody night and day for DD2 as the kids who'd been pulled in by the ringleader's child who wasn't allowed to be friends with DD2 (kid in question was actually a lovely kid - but mum would pull her away if she tried to interact with anyone mum didn't see as "appropriate" for her little princess) suddenly really did click with DD2 and become friends almost overnight.

It's not brilliant still - we still get some nasty comments at times (which school are very on the ball tackling in an age appropriate way) from kids who don't fully know DD2 and pick up on her speech - but she's got a group of friends now and the party invites and sleepovers have started to come. I did have to push school a bit last year to reinforce that she WAS being socially excluded and that they needed to do some gentle friendship work to rectify it - I also gave school my full permission to explain DD2's difficulties and name her condition to the kids if it helped, and I also explained it to DD2 (she's a tiny bit younger) just in terms of her brain finds it hard to be bossy to get her body to move around and she has to try harder which makes her a superhero to me (having an older sibling - DD2 is fully versed in the concept of being bossed around) - she quite liked that idea. Right now the kids think she's just totally cool as she gets to do some of her work on an iPad though!

I did have to be a bit of a squeaky wheel with school just to get them to monitor things at playtimes etc - but our school have a designated staff member who is out JUST to initiate play activities and channel kids who are struggling socially into appropriate activities etc (so they'll pull out the parachute and gather any strays who want to join in up etc) - which was all that was needed to break down the barriers really and once they'd forgotten that DD2 sometimes sounded a bit funny - she was just DD2 to them.

I think asking that children be kind and polite is all we can do really. I explain to my DC why X is different/ doesn't understand and to always be kind and patient, but I'm not going to demand that they play with them. Include them in a group situation and allow them input? Yes. But not necessarily in their free play time.

I think it's the same as work situations as an adult. I have to be polite and tolerant of my colleagues. Listen to everyone, be patient and understanding. But I don't necessarily 'like' all of them on a personal level.

I might avoid them on the train, walk a different route and I'm definitely not going to invite them to my house to dinner. That's my right surely? Does this make me a bad person?

Do others invite children that theirs have no relationship with over for play dates, just because?

I'm not someone who makes friends easily and I wish genuine friendships for my DC futures, I wish it for your's too OP.

OP - go over to the special needs boards though - AIBU won't end well (I'll be hiding the thread now)

Jacques

How absolutely vile of them.

@herculepoint I agree. OP sees her DC not having friends which I know hurts. But sees the solution as - the parents should force their DCs to be friends with her DC.

Yes of course we try to teach our kids not to be uncomfortable around children with additional needs or disabilities. But that's about being kind and polite, and takes us back to the OP who feels, understandably, that being kind and polite isn't enough.

Beyond that kindness, there has to be a genuine connection. And if a neurotypical child doesn't have that connection and genuine desire for a friendship, there's little we can do.

Well no I can’t see how someone using a wheelchair or missing an arm or stammering would make another child feel uncomfortable so in those cases no I wouldn’t accept that from my child. It’s more of a behaviour making them feel uncomfortable. In other cases where children can be overly touchy-freely, kick/ fight/ bite other children, invade their personal space, shout or bang very loudly etc or do other things which may reasonably cause upset then I can’t see why other children shouldn’t be free to walk away if it’s upsetting them.

I think it’s really hard for parents to see. I can’t see that inclusion means forced friendships and a patronising niceness. My children grew up surrounded by youngsters with learning difficulties. They’ve always accepted them as part and parcel of society. They don’t choose to spend most of their leisure time with people with learning difficulties though. At a wedding, at church, at drinks, they’ll talk nicely and include them but it becomes more difficult after that general acceptance. If they want to play scrabble, sort a days sailing or arrange a walking weekend it’s not really possible to include the person with LD without limitations on the activities.
It’s really hard for children who want to spend their time play tennis or football, who want to turn cartwheels or play donkey. The child with LD just isn’t a good partner sometimes. It’s not unkindness it is about finding people you have things in common with and who you can share experience with. Sometimes specialist provision helps with that and yes, sometimes it is about finding people like you rather than expecting everyone else to modify the thing that brings them pleasure and interactions.
I choose not to socialise with people who smoke or people who go to a pub to play darts. I’d make a very poor long distance. I don’t get included when younger staff are arranging to go to a festival. That’s fine.
If it helps, my son’s best friend has a sister with moderate LD and severe dyspraxia from a birth injury. Her mother always worried about social isolation and tried everything until the girl confessed she hated socialising and preferred to play with her toy cat family, read and watch pop music videos on her own. She completed a special needs college course but still only socialised to please her parents. She finds it really hard to consider others preferences and watch a video she doesn’t want to see. She was happy not being included all the time.

It’s fine not to like everyone. I have colleagues I don’t want to socialise with outside of work because we just don’t gel. However, the reason is never based on a behaviour related to disability. Children need to learn to look past disability and who is going to do that if not us?

Actually I think to some extent we all “engineer” our kids friendships.

For example when DD was small I ensured we didn’t have the same child to play at the expense of all others to make sure she didn’t have a narrow friendship group.

I think encouraging our children to “try out” a friendship is important.