To urge you to teach your children to be genuinely inclusive, not just polite?

[gingerginger2]

My kids are back at school this week (Scotland) and after a summer of seeing them without the context of their peers it’s a sadness again to see them interacting with other children.

On their own, they are sweet, silly, funny, kind, playful, interesting, creative, chatty. They are part of the world, full of wonder and learning and play.

But in the context of kids their age, they are different. They both have learning disabilities and dyspraxia.

They don’t know this though, they don’t quite realise they are “different” yet. They are little, they learn slowly, despite the constant lessons from society’s exclusions. They run up to their “friends” in such a carefree happy way, eager to talk, play, connect. It doesn’t seem to occur to them not to.

And when they do they mainly encounter silence. Uncomfortable polite looks. Or polite confused monosyllabic mumbles followed by eager escapes into actual easy friendships groups. Or at best a short conversation in a humouring tone, a tone learnt by imitating the tones adults take with small silly children.

There’s not really any unkindness. There’s just a refusal to actually engage, to get to know, to connect. An embarrassment and unwillingness to spend time with my children’s lack of social skills, messy clothes, an uncomfortableness at their invasion of their personal space. So a brief hello before getting on with actual friendships and relationships and life. An obvious desire to politely not engage. A smile with the lips not the eyes.

I’m amazed they don’t seem to realise that they’ve been snubbed again. But they din’t Mainly. Learning disability means everything is hard to learn I guess. But it’ heartbreaking to see they just carry on and continue to fling themselves at people, wide open, encountering boundaries wherever they go. I worry that soon they’ll start to realise and feel the pain of these rejections.

I worry too that maybe they do feel the pain. Maybe it goes somewhere deep, and maybe they are learning day by day that people don’t like them. That society isn’t for them.

I hate it.

Please can you teach your children to be more than polite and kind to their peers with disabilities? Please can you urge them to actually get to know them, to actually connect and include them? Even when they are messy, annoying, noisy and a bit weird. Even then?

*You, your children, me, my children, anyone could have an accident tomorrow and be left in a wheelchair, be left physically or cognitively impaired, all manner of things.

Your attitude would change then, trust me!*

My DD shows some signs of ASD now. I am aware that she might not always be the ‘advantaged’ party. It doesn’t change my opinion. I would no more demand other children pretended to be her friend than I would force her to do the same for others.

But you implied it is failing to respect your child’s individuality. Surely, that is wrong for everyone.
Your posts make me sad - mainly, I must say, for you and your daughter. It’s an odd way to view the world, and other people. Self centred to an unusual degree.

Hmm sorry for the confusion- I was quoting two previous posters arguing similar points about not necessarily forcing friendships. It seems that is the expectation though from the rest of the thread? I’m very confused by it. Yes I can and do encourage DC to expire different friendships. Yes I do facilitate play dates and encourage new friendships to flourish. Yes I do insist upon and model kindness and empathy. However, no, I wouldn’t force my child into a “friendship” which made them uncomfortable.

But you implied it is failing to respect your child’s individuality. Surely, that is wrong for everyone.
Your posts make me sad - mainly, I must say, for you and your daughter. It’s an odd way to view the world, and other people. Self centred to an unusual degree.

We’re okay, thanks. My DD is a kind and gentle child who will always be encouraged to be so. But she will also be respected. What you do with your kids is up to you.

Friendship is a two way street, both party's take something from the friendship, true friendships are equal in the give and take. If one takes more It doesn't last.

Do you invite children to play dates and parties or are you just expecting your children to be invited?

I agree with the poster that said personal boundaries being invaded are quite often an insurmountable Issue for adults and children.
We teach body autonomy and this conflicts with SN who hug and touch without permission.

Children are still learning about friendships. With the girl who was polite but dismissive- you could have joined them, helped direct your child to be less invasive of her space, talk to the girl yourself while walking with them to try and find common ground.

You can't force friendships no matter how sad that is.

Explore not expire

@pardonwhat But being inclusive in terms of being polite and nice isn't what the OP is talking about. She is talking about friendship. And that is different. So sure I will say good morning to colleagues I don't connect with and ask them if they had a good weekend, but I don't suggest the two of us go out for lunch together at lunchtime.

But would I invite racist Sharon from no. 8 around for a bbq? No

Are you really comparing sn with racism?

Fuck me...this thread has been an eye opener into just how fucking nasty some parents are. I'm now much closer to understanding the school mums now...I thought I had misunderstood them. Now I can see some people are indeed, just cunts.

Honestly, teaching children to be polite and kind is all you can do. I think that's more than enough. True connection can't be forced.

I think a lot comes from parents to be honest. If a parent is uncomfortable then kids pick up that there is something to uncomfortable about.

DS's best friend is autistic. He is a wonderful boy. He and DS have been friends since babyhood. They've been in the same class since nursery but are now in different classes as they're at senior school, streamed for ability. Even so they arrange to meet on specific days for lunch and walk home together. They've now introduced their own school friends to each other so the group is growing by the day! Their attitude seems to be 'you accept my friend or you don't accept me'. I know if DS was in trouble his friend would wade in - he's told bullies to back off before. I trust him implicitly.

DS's friend (let's call him John for ease) is loud. His parents have calmed him down a lot over the years but he's loud, he loves life and it shows. He loves to hug. He can be seen as 'bossy' because he likes to organise things. So when we have birthday parties we make sure he's the one to gather everyone up for games (when they were younger) or for food now. He's better at it than me so I use his strengths!

I call him my second son. He is welcome at ours any time and always will be. He's happy to be asked to take the volume down a level - which we do, we'd do the same with DS so we don't treat them differently.

DS happily tells him, kindly with an arm on his shoulder, that he's being bossy rather than have him teased by others who don't know how to handle it. We taught him to do that rather than be too blunt. But it's like other kids so frightened of hurting his feelings by just asking him to quieten just a little, that they hurt his feelings by shying away. It's really sad.

As far as the hugs go 'John' always greets me and DH with a hug. We've always accepted them - why wouldn't we? He's a child. Our DS hugs 'John's' parents, who are also our friends. He and DS have a special code for the intensity of the hugs now - so a 10 is a 'lift me of my feet' and a 1 is 'be gentle I've had a rough day'! They worked it out by themselves - it works for them.

'John' comes to every birthday party - always top of the list - not because we or DS feels we should invite him but because our DS's birthday wouldn't be the same without his best mate. DS was once heard to say to someone at his party for games 'no, John is on our team or you can go on the other one'. He stands no nonsense. John is his first and best friend and comes first. I hope it continues like that.

DS loves his friend to bits. We explained about his autism very early on and DS has helped to calm him a few times at school when he's been very close to getting upset. John was upset once on the way home from primary school because he felt 'different' and DS said 'don't worry about it. Your brain is wired differently, that's all. Makes you unique. That's why I like you.'

But I think, as well as their love for each other, DS's assumption that John will always be part of his life comes from the fact that we've treated him just like any other friend - which he is, he's just a bit larger than life!

Overwhelming message coming from many of you is

Our Tolerance is enough. Our children’s right to easy friendships are more important than your children’s right to connection and to be part of a society. It’s tough but you just need to accept your children are different and there’s no solution to this as it’s not possible for us to alter our attitudes and teach our children to actively include others. So therefore you should just take your children elsewhere so they can be with their own kind.

Some of you with neuritypical children , imagine they had a accident tonight and lost some of their cognitive functioning. Would you be happy to join the world you are giving to families like mine?

Some kids are simply very anxious- my 7 years old suffers from awful anxiety and can come across as rude when other kids come up and say hello or try and play with her spontaneously. She’s okay with pre-arranged play dates. I’d hate to think that she’s being judged for being non-inclusive because of this.

I would no more demand other children pretended to be her friend than I would force her to do the same for others.

You have a point, I wouldn't want anyone to 'pretend' to be friends with my child because their parents told them to. Or play with them out of pity. I'd want them to be friends because they genuinely enjoy each other's company.
How can you foster that?

This 'feeling uncomfortable' is a bit misleading though isn't it and a bit of a cop out?

I don't want to be friends with Jordan.
Why?
They make me feel uncomfortable.

A1) OK, that's fine.

A2) Oh, why is that?
B) They are missing a hand and it looks weird and I don't know whether to say anything
A) Well, you'll get used to how it looks. Here are some ways you could mention it ….

or

B) They stutter with their speech and dribble a bit
A) Well they can't really help that, can they. Could you try just slowing down a bit and giving them time to answer. Maybe have some tissues handy to offer them if they run out.

or

C) They always say really mean things about others and twist words to make them out to be bad
A) OK, that's fine to not play with them, but don't go out of your way to be mean.

formerbabe

Please please PLEASE point out to me where I compared special needs with racism.
I was merely pointing out to the previous poster that, yes, as an adult I am entirely inclusive but that is a little different to them suggesting that children in a school shouldn’t be pushed to be inclusive of children with SEN.

I don't feel at all uncomfortable with children or adults with SN. But I also think that children and adults should get to choose their own friendships.

jennymanara

You have a point there. I guess I mean that if there was a group lunch of course someone with SEN or who I didn’t connect with etc would be included.

Yes, I will keep teaching my kids to reach out to those who are isolated. I’m not quite clear on how that involves failing to respect them, and they don’t see it that way either, thankfully.
Gosh, it’s a cold world some people live in, isnt it?

@herculepoirot2

So do the adults agreeing with OP do this? Do you include people in your friendship groups that you find it hard to connect with?
Because my experience is that adults choose their friends based on who they connect with and get on with. I am surprised that anyone thinks children should behave differently.

I don't agree with forced friendships/uncomfortable friendships etc.

That aside, I think or at least from my understanding is, OP is not saying force your children to play with mine even if they have nothing in common/make each other uncomfortable etc. But rather, she's saying recognise my children are different but don't automatically exclude them based on their disabilities.

@HeyMonkey I completely understand you, I’m the same. When I was reading about the little girl who went the longer way round, I identified with her. I get very panicked and distressed when someone invades my personal space without my consent or permission, it’s not exclusive to people with additional needs and disabilities, it’s anyone I don’t know or trust yet. It stems from childhood abuse in my case and is a self protection method. I just freeze and struggle to breathe. I’ve had therapy for it and my counsellors have said it’s perfectly fine and actually wise for me to assert my physical boundaries and that I should have been encouraged more as a child to tell people not to touch me and insist that I wasn’t forced to hug or kiss relatives, strangers etc and to be able to say when people were standing too close for comfort.

I think it’s important that all children are taught to respect their own and others physical boundaries and to understand that not everyone wants to be touched or hugged and that it’s also ok to say, for example, “I’d love to play this game with you but I feel really upset when anyone touches me, please can we play without touching each other?”. Hopefully, in that case the child with AN will gain a friend and some understanding about other people’s quirks and boundaries.

Our children’s right to easy friendships are more important than your children’s right to connection and to be part of a society.

My child’s right to walk away when she feels uncomfortable and to try to form friendships she enjoys is as important as your child’s rights.

Now I can see some people are indeed, just cunts

Yup. Hence why I would never encourage my DD to pursue friendships at her loss because you just get bitched about.

So do the adults agreeing with OP do this? Do you include people in your friendship groups that you find it hard to connect with?
I’ve included a mum from school that other women classed as weird and aloof that had various MH issues, it took a while for her open up and chat but she was glad to be asked on the mums night out or round for a coffee.

It’s not about forcing friendships to me, it’s about making people feel valued and liked and most importantly included.

Nobody wants to feel like they aren’t valued or they don’t belong.

@teentimestwo Yes if kids feel uncomfortable. But a lot of the time it is about who they get on with. Same for me as an adult. That is not about being uncomfortable, but simply that I like and connect with some better than others. Why should my kids be any different?
DP is disabled so I am well aware that his visible disability does cause some adults to be less friendly. I don't like it, but that is life. But I am also aware that there are some adults who like him, and some who don't. He is fairly quiet and gentle, and simply would not have anything in common with blokey blokes. That is okay too.

OP is not saying force your children to play with mine even if they have nothing in common/make each other uncomfortable etc. But rather, she's saying recognise my children are different but don't automatically exclude them based on their disabilities.

That isn’t quite my reading. I am reading that she thinks my child’s decision (hypothetically) not to be friends with hers is somehow in breach of her child's rights.