To urge you to teach your children to be genuinely inclusive, not just polite?

[gingerginger2]

My kids are back at school this week (Scotland) and after a summer of seeing them without the context of their peers it’s a sadness again to see them interacting with other children.

On their own, they are sweet, silly, funny, kind, playful, interesting, creative, chatty. They are part of the world, full of wonder and learning and play.

But in the context of kids their age, they are different. They both have learning disabilities and dyspraxia.

They don’t know this though, they don’t quite realise they are “different” yet. They are little, they learn slowly, despite the constant lessons from society’s exclusions. They run up to their “friends” in such a carefree happy way, eager to talk, play, connect. It doesn’t seem to occur to them not to.

And when they do they mainly encounter silence. Uncomfortable polite looks. Or polite confused monosyllabic mumbles followed by eager escapes into actual easy friendships groups. Or at best a short conversation in a humouring tone, a tone learnt by imitating the tones adults take with small silly children.

There’s not really any unkindness. There’s just a refusal to actually engage, to get to know, to connect. An embarrassment and unwillingness to spend time with my children’s lack of social skills, messy clothes, an uncomfortableness at their invasion of their personal space. So a brief hello before getting on with actual friendships and relationships and life. An obvious desire to politely not engage. A smile with the lips not the eyes.

I’m amazed they don’t seem to realise that they’ve been snubbed again. But they din’t Mainly. Learning disability means everything is hard to learn I guess. But it’ heartbreaking to see they just carry on and continue to fling themselves at people, wide open, encountering boundaries wherever they go. I worry that soon they’ll start to realise and feel the pain of these rejections.

I worry too that maybe they do feel the pain. Maybe it goes somewhere deep, and maybe they are learning day by day that people don’t like them. That society isn’t for them.

I hate it.

Please can you teach your children to be more than polite and kind to their peers with disabilities? Please can you urge them to actually get to know them, to actually connect and include them? Even when they are messy, annoying, noisy and a bit weird. Even then?

So in the situation I suggested, hercule, you wouldn’t encourage your child to reach out to the excluded one and try and include them? Or you would?

I don’t have enough information. I don’t know whether my child feels uncomfortable with this child. I don’t know how the child behaves towards other children. How can I answer?

These girls are solid as a rock, one of the girls has sen and the others help change for PE

I don't think anyone thinks other children should be used as carers in school for children with sn.

In this case, I'd discuss this issue with the school. If the child needs practical help with changing then the school needs to address this and/or provide a suitable person to do this rather than other pupils.

Because the thing is, hercule, you weren’t talking about kindness, you were talking about tolerance. I’m sure you realise those aren’t the same thing.

I personally actively try and make friends with people that are different to me, because I know from experience that it benefits me to have a broad range of friends who challenge me .

I would think that would be a good thing to teach neurotypical children. A good thing for a society to know. That it’s beneficial not just to the individual you befriend, but to yourself to get out of your echo chamber.

And that not all friendships are easy. Some take effort, some challenge you. And sometimes it is a good thing to challenge yourself and be selfless in order to make s difference to another person.

Some of you need to do some reading about the social model of disability. www.mentalhealth.org.uk/learning-disabilities/a-to-z/s/social-model-disability
It’s not just a lack of accessible toilets that makes the world a harder place for those with disabilities. It’s attitudes like those displayed here, that tolerance is enough. That it is not necessary for the non disabled majority to challenge themselves to really engage and change the way the make friendships and interact.

It’s good to see this talked about though. And although i’m Really sad that others understand, it does help to read your similar stories and not feel so alone. Lots of love to all that get it, I send you a little balm to soothe the constant arrows in your heart.

hercule how likely is it that your son would ask?

I have a daughter. She is too young for this situation at the moment but seems kind and warily sociable. She is unlikely, in my view, to naturally want to engage with anybody very loud or who doesn’t understand personal space.

Assume there is nothing different about the child other than the factors I’ve mentioned. Those factors, whether because your child has no experience of them or because of reactions of peers, make your child uncomfortable. What guidance, if any, do you give?

That it is not necessary for the non disabled majority to challenge themselves to really engage and change the way the make friendships and interact.

I understand the social model. I also don’t think it is necessary for my very young daughter to ‘challenge herself’ when she is meant to be playing and forming friendships she will enjoy. I understand why you want what you want, but yes, you are BU.

I think it depends on age. When they're at nursery for example they're all over the place socially and emotionally but as they move up through primary school this gets better.

Not sure you can teach nursery age children the level of empathy you're talking about though.

Tolerance would make a change. My aspie ds lasted one term in secondary school and had to leave for his own safety. "You fucking ginger faggot" was a particularly popular term of endearment from the other pupils at his nice catholic secondary. He spent his lunchtimes crouching in a dirty doorway trying to eat his packed lunch whilst hiding from others. He got pushed over in the library by one of the other library monitors.

I think some people are expecting more of children than they could reasonably expect of adults.

Most people, no matter their age, will remove themselves from an uncomfortable situation as quickly as possible. If someone is behaving in a way that makes us uncomfortable (e.g. not respecting personal space), even if we want to be "nice" and not to cause offense, we don't want to prolong the experience and will certainly not actively seek it out.

As harsh as it may sound, I've been in the situation before of not politely excusing myself, then finding that it was assumed that I'd be the standard, go-to "friend" for a person, when honestly, I didn't particularly want to spend my time with them, on a daily basis. I didn't want to be rude, but neither did I want to be the "designated buddy" at the expense of friendships or activities I actually enjoyed.

It's sad, but not easily fixed, like so many problems.

I think teaching staff have a massive role to play here when kids are young. If a teacher really rates a child with additional needs and treats them in a genuinely accepting and matey way - like they do to the popular kids - without being ott or patronising or virtue signalling, it can make a huge difference to the way the child is perceived by their peers. I've seen it happen but I've also seen the reverse. It only has to be subtle in either the positive or negative direction for the others to pick up on it.

So you wouldn’t encourage your daughter to reach out to the child in my hypothetical example, hercule?

DD is really uncomfortable with over exuberant kids. She has her own disability and their approaches can be anxiety filled for her.

But - and it’s a big one - I have always told her she needs to accept this is how some kids are. And that those kids need and deserve friends too. She will always include the “other” kids, whether they are the “naughty” ones no-one likes, or the “odd” kids everyone makes fun of, the “annoying” kids everyone leaves out. She is always reminding her friend group not to be rude or hard or mean to kids who struggle socially for whatever reason. This has stood her in really good stead at school as she is seen as one of the more responsible ones. She is given opportunities to mentor and to work with kids in enhanced provision. She finds it hugely rewarding and has made some good friends there.

One kid who joined the class last year had serious anger issues and at first everyone left him out of everything. She made friends with him and he has really calmed down. She invited him to her birthday party and in chatting to him it became clear he had never had an invite before. He had never had a friend, not in the two previous schools he’d been excluded from in his 5 years at school. He won the “most improved” award this year and was pleased as punch. Because she befriended him and became his cheerleader, other kids included him too and he has become a really popular kid in the class. This is what can happen when children are encouraged not to exclude.

Honestly kids should be able to make friends freely at school without the influence of their parents. Asking parents to make their kids include kids they don’t like, or want to be friends with, doesn’t help their development either. I know it’s hard for you but you may need to encourage your kids to branch out beyond school

Urgh. Awful attitude. Fine, OP, just find lots of children outside of school for them to play with. Their 6 hours a day at school being left out is just something they have to deal with, god forbid we try to teach kids to be inclusive🙄

It’s not about telling your children who to be friends with, it’s about teaching them not to be dicks.

OP how old are your children - you may have mentioned this earlier but I've missed it. My DC have children with disabilities in their classes - learning disabilities and autism - and generally they play OK.

However, as a parent it is really hard sometimes because we don't always know how to deal with some of the special needs e.g. a tendency to hit and kick other children, or to scream a lot and scratch. The rules are different and the children are aware of this - i.e. the school comes down heavily on kids who hit but this doesn't apply for some children etc.

But at the end of the day we all want the best for our children and for me that also means respecting the wishes of my DC.

If a teacher really rates a child with additional needs and treats them in a genuinely accepting and matey way - like they do to the popular kids - without being ott or patronising or virtue signalling, it can make a huge difference to the way the child is perceived by their peers

So interesting and completely true.

One year, on the first day of the new school year, the TA came out to greet the children. She only greeted the popular group and led them into the classroom whilst the rest stood there. I was quite horrified to be honest.

Most heartbreaking and sincere post I have read on here which actually made me stop and think.

I have always told DC that everyone is different and that's great cause that's what makes them, them. However, I must admit having read your post, I realise I should have gone into more detail.

There's an autistic and severely dyslexic child in one of my DC classes. She receives separate(additional) help from a special needs teacher (my DC mentioned this as I was unaware). I simple responded with an okay. I didn't give it much thought. We had her for DC's party but it was only 3 hours and in a public place with everyone else from the class. I did not notice anything different happening neither did her mother mention anything aside from no juice and no fizzy drinks. I haven't noticed that my DC treats her any differently (aside from her BF who she treats different from everyone)

Question, I have always wondered where the limit is? Would you allow your DC over to a friends for a play date, or to the cinema etc? I understand that a sleepover may be out of question. If you had parents encouraging their DC to engage more with yours, would you feel that it's only being done because of their disabilities?

The last thing I would want to do is appear as if I were pitying anyone (most people cannot stand pity, myself included ) or intruding.

Where is it written that we or our children have a "right not to feel uncomfortable"? Never heard such a stupid idea in my life.

Sometimes things make us feel uncomfortable - that's just life. We need to teach our kids to judge whether they are feeling uncomfortable because they are in a dangerous situation (and get away) or merely because they are in a new situation.

This is where all the "safe space" bollocks comes from as well. And the hysterical reactions when someone is offended.

I am teaching my kids to get over themselves and see how they can make the world a better place for others.

I was both proud and heartbroken for my DD when she befriended a girl with Downs Syndrome at Brownies, whom the other girls ignored. As a result of her wanting to spend time with the child with DS the other girls excluded DD too, so she felt very lonely and unwanted.

for the OP. It's tough seeing your kids rejected.

It's got nothing to do with "forcing" your kids to be friends with anyone and everything to do with teaching them a bit of empathy and that sometimes it's worth scratching below the surface to really get to know someone.
There will be many many times in their lives when they are thrown together with people they would superficially have chosen - for example at work - and learning that friends can come in many different guises.

*would not have superficially chosen

The school used my daughter's willingness to look past SEN to use her as unpaid help in the classroom "supporting" one of the other girls. The extent to which this ended up being required damaged her relationship with her other friends and impacted on her academic achievement. I had to have several words with them before they stopped and I got a heavy guilt trip laid on me about her being "nice" and "kind".

I won't have my kids being told to be nice and kind to the point where it is damaging to them, and them made to feel guilty for not wanting to be friends with everyone. She is moving to high school this year and I had to ask them not to place the girls together as I didn't want them to fall into the trap of my DD being guilted into being with her all the time. She's a lovely girl, but needs support from teachers and genuine friendship from her peers, not forced support from her peers which will stop genuine friendships from forming.

YANBU at all. Not the slightest little bit. God knows we could all do with learning to be more inclusive and more open.
And that's what it is really - it's asking children to think about being open to difference - not having to be 'kind' or 'helpful', because that still leaves the child with a difference in a supplicant position, whereas if they could simply be accepted as an equal on their own terms, people could see the wonderful, funny, creative, warm people that they so often are.
My own children have suffered greatly from this - dyspraxia, AS and Ehlers Danlos syndrome. It broke my heart and I can count on the fingers of one hand the wonderful people who were able to 'see' the same individuals that their father and I see. It shouldn't be too much to ask.

“It’s about teaching them not to be dicks.” Well indeed, but how to do that when you’re a dick yourself? This is the problem.
One thing about having a kid with SN - it does tend to lead you to the people worth bothering with. And there are some.

I think some people are expecting more of children than they could reasonably expect of adults.

Very sadly this. How many people on here have friends with special needs or disabilities? Proper real friends, not just people you are kind to and tolerate.

I am a disabled woman. I am fortunate to have a group of brilliant friends from before I became disabled. But the only friends I have made since I became disabled are other disabled people. I’m regularly excluded by the cool mums and school mums in the village. Oh they chat on to me, but I am never invited to a mums day out or evening do.

So you wouldn’t encourage your daughter to reach out to the child in my hypothetical example, hercule?

I would ask my daughter what she thought of the child and how they made her feel. I would listen to her answer. I would remind her that people can feel excluded in new situations and when they are different to others. And I would ask her what she wanted to do. Never would I tell her she had to continue to seek friendship with someone who actively made her feel uncomfortable.

Brot - my son did all the things you mentioned - sleepovers/ cinema/ play dates and loved them. And then people started to shun him in secondary school mainly - primary school had been pretty good - and he really missed it. As a note of hope things did get better again in sixth form college and one of my highlights this year was that, on his eighteenth birthday, he went out to the pub and clubbing with friends. That seemed impossible a few years ago, when he would have happy birthdays with the family, but constantly be looking to social media to see if anyone had bothered to wish him a happy birthday.