To urge you to teach your children to be genuinely inclusive, not just polite?

[gingerginger2]

My kids are back at school this week (Scotland) and after a summer of seeing them without the context of their peers it’s a sadness again to see them interacting with other children.

On their own, they are sweet, silly, funny, kind, playful, interesting, creative, chatty. They are part of the world, full of wonder and learning and play.

But in the context of kids their age, they are different. They both have learning disabilities and dyspraxia.

They don’t know this though, they don’t quite realise they are “different” yet. They are little, they learn slowly, despite the constant lessons from society’s exclusions. They run up to their “friends” in such a carefree happy way, eager to talk, play, connect. It doesn’t seem to occur to them not to.

And when they do they mainly encounter silence. Uncomfortable polite looks. Or polite confused monosyllabic mumbles followed by eager escapes into actual easy friendships groups. Or at best a short conversation in a humouring tone, a tone learnt by imitating the tones adults take with small silly children.

There’s not really any unkindness. There’s just a refusal to actually engage, to get to know, to connect. An embarrassment and unwillingness to spend time with my children’s lack of social skills, messy clothes, an uncomfortableness at their invasion of their personal space. So a brief hello before getting on with actual friendships and relationships and life. An obvious desire to politely not engage. A smile with the lips not the eyes.

I’m amazed they don’t seem to realise that they’ve been snubbed again. But they din’t Mainly. Learning disability means everything is hard to learn I guess. But it’ heartbreaking to see they just carry on and continue to fling themselves at people, wide open, encountering boundaries wherever they go. I worry that soon they’ll start to realise and feel the pain of these rejections.

I worry too that maybe they do feel the pain. Maybe it goes somewhere deep, and maybe they are learning day by day that people don’t like them. That society isn’t for them.

I hate it.

Please can you teach your children to be more than polite and kind to their peers with disabilities? Please can you urge them to actually get to know them, to actually connect and include them? Even when they are messy, annoying, noisy and a bit weird. Even then?

Are you this angry in front of the other parents? That won’t help.

Sounds like the school is a bad fit for your child.

If my nt ds walked a different route to avoid walking with a child with sn in his class, I'd be so disappointed.

It isn’t unkind to move away from a situation that is making you feel uncomfortable.

Nonsense. It may very well be unkind.

@MaryBerrysBomberJacket

Another articulate and reasonable post, which again will probably be lost in the fight.

OP you have nothing but my sympathy. I work with SN and NT kids every day. I see exclusion in both camps, for all sorts of reasons. I'll still be worrying about kids when I get home at night. BUT... like many others, I'm still not entirely sure what the answer is here and I honestly don't think the anger directed at Hercule is unjustified. She hasn't actually said half the things she's been accused of, people are extrapolating her words to the worst possible conclusion.

How ironic that a heartbreaking about empathy and understanding has descended into name-calling and insults.

Well this thread has been an eye opener. And not in a good way. I’m quite shocked by some of the attitudes expressed here.

You do sound full of contempt and anger ginger. You won’t help your little ones being so full of bitterness towards other peoples’ children. They are still young and developing they just aren’t mature enough to second guess your child’s needs or to have to carry that. Their break is precious to them too. The school could possibly ask children to take it in turns explaining their games to him or playing indoors with him. They need an adult to manage this though.

Nonsense. It may very well be unkind.

Why? Why doesn’t a child have the right to put themselves and their safety and comfort first without being called unkind or a bully?

I'm sorry I don't think there is anything to be gained in expecting a little girl "to spend 5 mins of her day talking to him", if she simply doesn't want to because she is not in the mood, does not like him or is uncomfortable. Surely that is the little girl's right whether or not your son is SN or NT.

I echo the other posters that the level of sensitivity in navigating these relationships is a minefield that even conscientious adults struggle with that we are expecting from small children but at best struggle with ourselves. As anyone I will teach my children to be kind and tolerant but I don't expect them to constantly remain in situations they do not want to.

I'm an adult, sometimes I just don't want to interact with anyone because I am feeling anxious and it takes it's toll on my emotional and mental well-being so I don't. It took years to learn that that was okay, I want my children to be polite and kind and not prejudiced but I won't force them to continually spend time with someone they don't want like I was forced to, because they had no friends.

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh. I don't think that makes me a horrible person, but if it does, I'm sorry I am a horrible person.

Why? Why doesn’t a child have the right to put themselves and their safety and comfort first without being called unkind or a bully?

What do you mean by safety and comfort?

I have had years of this. In my experience of primary school, children learn from their parents. A lot of them were quite keen to play with and include my child but the parents were the ones who clocked he was different. They were the ones who subtly encouraged other friendships and made excuses when play date invitations were extended.

Parents of neurotypical absolutely have the power to encourage their children to be more inclusive but unfortunately, their disablism means they do the exact opposite.

Many of them - as is pretty apparent on this thread - want our children to be kept far away from their neurotypical angels. Perhaps SEN is catching? Or maybe it's just that they think that clever Charlie who takes violin lessons and is also in junior rugby would make a better sort of friend. Because they are aspirational and find our children embarrassing and difficult.

It's just social engineering.

A NT child might not want to play with someone who might suddenly lash out physically or is too rough/too touchy for their liking.

That's safety and comfort.

What do you mean by safety and comfort?

It could mean any number of things, but I am talking about feeling happy and comfortable that their boundaries are respected by the other person. That means that, if they don’t want to talk right now, they don’t have to.

I think in summary I would only put my foot down if my child became upset over physical or verbal behaviour. Apart from that I preach acceptance, love and kindness at all times to my kids. Once in a soft play a much older autistic boy wouldn’t leave my son ( 5) and kept threatening to cut his throat and other violent acts. My child was terrified and I mentioned it to his mum and she just said “ he’s autistic “. She didn’t try to change the situation in anyway because maybe she couldn’t and she wanted a break too and to enjoy her cup of tea in peace. We left in the end because despite my attempts at inclusion/ distraction the SEN boy continued to terrorise my son. I felt awful for everyone to be honest. No winners there.

*sunshinedaisydo

I don’t think a young child is an “ignorant twat” for removing themselves from a situation like that, even if their feeling has no rational basis.*

Did I say I was talking about a young child?

I have never encouraged or discouraged any friendships.

@pikapikachu agree 100%

@hollygoloudly1 thank you. I am desperate, really fucking desperate, for those reacting with anger to read what I have written and think about it.

I am all things in this situation. I am that child. I am the parent. I am the teacher. We cannot expect kids to do this. As parents we can support but no force. We can educate and model, but not expect them to act like adults.

Please, please stop accusing parents who say we need to respect boundaries as excluding people. I would have walked the long way around. I would have been polite and then looked for my mum because I was awkward. Are you going to call me a bully? A twat? Ablist? Even now I don't really know how to respond in certain situations, as I child I had no fucking idea. Even now I might do it, because sometimes I'm still overstimulated by the world, let alone someone in my vicinity.

These are children. Remember that. Be the parent; support your child, help them navigate the world, because the world will not change to suit them. Trust me. We find our own way, our own people. Demanding that the world bends, using some of the language here about children who do not know how to do more than be polite... it won't work.

Can we please have a discussion here without the aggression and name calling? We might actually learn something.

Whilst I agree with the sentiment in your original post op, I cannot agree with your attitude to the young girl. You seem to think all NT children are happy and confident with wonderful lives and that is just not the case. You have no idea what that young girl might be dealing with. Maybe she'd just had a fight with her mum, maybe her granny or dog died, maybe her parents fight all the time and she just needed some head space. Everyone, children and adults alike, have their own shit going on and I think you need to recognise that.

Did I say I was talking about a young child?

No. But I am. I am not prepared to extend the same expectations I would have of an adult to a little child.

Just rereading your comments about the girl OP. Are you sure she isn't picking up on your simmering anger in the background as much as anything else? All the grown ups on this thread haven't been able to find a solution but you've dumped this enormous responsibility on a 10 year old girl?

We all need to find our tribe. The people we “click” with. It can’t be forced, polite tolerance can but not a genuine connection. I don’t know enough about this my kids nt but my friend has been thrilled with the way her dd now has proper friends with her peers because she is not in a mainstream school anymore. By year 6 the girls were kind but there was no real connection her dd was too far apart from them. Now she has that.

A NT child might not want to play with someone who might suddenly lash out physically or is too rough/too touchy for their liking.

So we are talking about the potential for violence among people with SN? What about people like my brother, who is constitutionally incapable of violence (except directed at himself )? What would be the excuse of the many, many children who ignored, excluded, and rejected him throughout his childhood?

@MaryBerrysBomberJacket I have only been lurking on this thread so far, but your posts are outstanding - I really hope @gingerginger2 will respond to them in due course.

Maryberry the name calling has been very one sided!