To urge you to teach your children to be genuinely inclusive, not just polite?

[gingerginger2]

My kids are back at school this week (Scotland) and after a summer of seeing them without the context of their peers it’s a sadness again to see them interacting with other children.

On their own, they are sweet, silly, funny, kind, playful, interesting, creative, chatty. They are part of the world, full of wonder and learning and play.

But in the context of kids their age, they are different. They both have learning disabilities and dyspraxia.

They don’t know this though, they don’t quite realise they are “different” yet. They are little, they learn slowly, despite the constant lessons from society’s exclusions. They run up to their “friends” in such a carefree happy way, eager to talk, play, connect. It doesn’t seem to occur to them not to.

And when they do they mainly encounter silence. Uncomfortable polite looks. Or polite confused monosyllabic mumbles followed by eager escapes into actual easy friendships groups. Or at best a short conversation in a humouring tone, a tone learnt by imitating the tones adults take with small silly children.

There’s not really any unkindness. There’s just a refusal to actually engage, to get to know, to connect. An embarrassment and unwillingness to spend time with my children’s lack of social skills, messy clothes, an uncomfortableness at their invasion of their personal space. So a brief hello before getting on with actual friendships and relationships and life. An obvious desire to politely not engage. A smile with the lips not the eyes.

I’m amazed they don’t seem to realise that they’ve been snubbed again. But they din’t Mainly. Learning disability means everything is hard to learn I guess. But it’ heartbreaking to see they just carry on and continue to fling themselves at people, wide open, encountering boundaries wherever they go. I worry that soon they’ll start to realise and feel the pain of these rejections.

I worry too that maybe they do feel the pain. Maybe it goes somewhere deep, and maybe they are learning day by day that people don’t like them. That society isn’t for them.

I hate it.

Please can you teach your children to be more than polite and kind to their peers with disabilities? Please can you urge them to actually get to know them, to actually connect and include them? Even when they are messy, annoying, noisy and a bit weird. Even then?

And all of us have spent umpteen " 5 mins" with all sorts of people. They share they dont call kids names.or Make fun. They include people in games etc

I dont think either of them taking 5 mins.peace before school makes them despicable human beings

I’d spend 5 minutes of my day talking to somebody with SN who approached me, even if I didn’t particularly want to. That’s because I could put their need to have that conversation above my own to not.

I think it’s unfair to expect a young child or adolescent to display that kind of adult thought process. They don’t have, and shouldn’t need to have, that level of maturity. She did the right thing in your example - she was polite and walked away.

Excuse me weaning woes, but I was looking after my other disabled child at the time.

And I spend a high fucking percentage of every day doing exactly what you describe, scaffolding my kids and trying to coach and teach them how to interact with their peers.

I cannot be there every single time to do this. And I shouldn’t have to be. Surely a neurotypical confident 10 year old girl (which she is, I know her well) should be able to walk next to my child and talk for 5 mins without it martyring her, compromising her autonomy, forcing a friendship on her, putting her at risk of abuse by weakening her boundaries???? It’s a short friendly inclusive conversation, not a fucking betrothal. Inclusiveness isn’t usyalkybto the NT chikd’s detriment Like many of you assume it is. So I really don’t see It as me putting my child before yours, as what i’m Talking about isn’t to your child’s detriment.

My kid and I were were blanked last week by a 12 year old kid I have known since about 12 months of age.

Mother was present so I do not know if she took time out later to remind this kid to be polite in future. But either way my own kid looked pretty cut up for a moment and commented on the snub. I do know this kid has never been overly social so I explain this to mine. All I can do is raise my own.

Schools can only do so much, having said that they could handle things better with more honesty and encouraging kids to be good neighbours.

Basic politeness is a start.

The girl did nothing wrong. Stop expecting a child to be so accepting of being uncomfortable. Even a child has a right to set personal boundaries and politely excuse themselves from a situation they're not happy with.

I was in the queue for the till at a supermarket the other day. There was a man with learning disabilities behind me. I let him go first and he told me about the things he was buying. We had a pleasant chat for five minutes. But I was making small talk. I wasn’t engaging on the level at which I engage with my friends, with whom I share interests, history, mutual acquaintances etc. My smile didn’t ‘reach my eyes’. There is nothing wrong with that. It’s how I would be with the 99.9% of the population I don’t know from Adam.

But if I hadn’t wanted to chat, maybe because I wasn’t feeling very chatty or because I felt ill or because I have anxiety about talking to strangers or because I had to rush and couldn’t let him go first, I would still have been within my rights.

*I’d spend 5 minutes of my day talking to somebody with SN who approached me, even if I didn’t particularly want to. That’s because I could put their need to have that conversation above my own to not.

I think it’s unfair to expect a young child or adolescent to display that kind of adult thought process. They don’t have, and shouldn’t need to have, that level of maturity. She did the right thing in your example - she was polite and walked away*

But if everyone is society did this as standard it would become the norm, children would see it as normal and do it themselves and it wouldn't be some special thing that warrants a post on Mumsnet about it. That 5 minutes might make you realise you have something in common, enjoy each other's company, something to build on for next time and not just a pity 5 mins (which many people can see through).

But it isn't. Most people see SN individuals as a slight inconvenience, something that makes them feel uncomfortable and want to look the other way and they filters to the children.

Maybe she’s fed up of all the children coming up to her if she’s a popular kid. Maybe she just wanted some time to herself. Maybe she doesn’t like your child.
Maybe she was rushing off to meet a friend. Maybe she’s having a hard time at home.

Regardless of the reason she’s not your child’s comforter. Nobody has to make idle chit chat if they don’t want to. Even as adults we have off days.

If there are other factors here, please share them.

Is he excluded from games at break time?

Yes of course he is! Because the games they play are too fast, too complicated, too much for him. And they are not expected to modify their play and make an effort to include. I guess that would compromise their autonomy, choices too much. He spends every lunchtime either on his own or with his support assistant.

Are the other children unkind to him when he tries to speak??

Yes!! Of course it’s unkind to not listen to someone when they try to speak with you and move away. Regardless of how politely you do it.

You really have no idea

A 5 min chat in way to school is a completely different thing to what you were asking for in your op. If that's what you said his head would be ten posts long.

*this thread

Also say she had done that, because it was the right thing to do, with a smile that "didn't reach her eyes". Good enough? Not good enough?

Of course it’s unkind to not listen to someone when they try to speak with you and move away. Regardless of how politely you do it.

It isn’t unkind to move away from a situation that is making you feel uncomfortable.

As hard as it is for your son not to be included in break time games (and the adults should be helping to manage this) it is not the fault of small children that they want to leave the classroom and run around.

*I was in the queue for the till at a supermarket the other day. There was a man with learning disabilities behind me. I let him go first and he told me about the things he was buying. We had a pleasant chat for five minutes. But I was making small talk. I wasn’t engaging on the level at which I engage with my friends, with whom I share interests, history, mutual acquaintances etc. My smile didn’t ‘reach my eyes’. There is nothing wrong with that. It’s how I would be with the 99.9% of the population I don’t know from Adam.

But if I hadn’t wanted to chat, maybe because I wasn’t feeling very chatty or because I felt ill or because I have anxiety about talking to strangers or because I had to rush and couldn’t let him go first, I would still have been within my rights.*

I think a lot of people in this thread think a lot of other people with SN are like this, not at a similar cognitive level to them etc therefore how can you have a meaningful friendship. However for my son and many others who are on the autistic spectrum, who are extremely social and way above cognitively and are able to fully engage in all conversations and topics...they have the same experience. Pity 5 mins conversations rather than people seeing beyond the autism and considering they might be an interesting person to get to know.

There's 1 hairdresser in my town who regardless of who she has in the chair, is exactly the same to everyone. Warm, friendly, chatty, asks everyone about themselves, offers information about herself, the town, stories she has etc. She's the only hairdresser my son will see because she treats him like a normal human being instead of 'an autistic weirdo that no one wants around' (his words)

It is the school.

I think a lot of people in this thread think a lot of other people with SN are like this, not at a similar cognitive level to them etc therefore how can you have a meaningful friendship

I didn’t say that. I was talking about this particular individual. He was not someone with whom I could have a friendship along the lines of the friendships I have currently. I am not saying I couldn’t get to know him. I’m sure I could. But we are never going to be ‘friends’ in the sense I mean.

@gingerginger2

I would really like to have a good discussion with you about this but your emotional reaction is making it difficult for me to engage with. I get that when your children are involve emotions are high, but trust me from experience as a parent and teacher, you need to remove the emotion to be clear and effective as a parent.

I be honest, I still don't understand what you are after, or why you see all of the actions of these children as exclusion of your child because of their special needs. Children choose to interact with the people they want to, those who they have things in common with. Yes, we should take time to get to know someone but even as I child I could work out if we were going to have things in common. Should I have kept trying as a child, to find something in common with another person? Should I do that now as an adult?

And before you, and some of the other posters here jump on me like they are to some (@herculepoirot2 I agree with you entirely and am not sure why you are being attacked) can I direct you to my previous post. I was this child. I have Aspergers, no friends at school but was very happy to be tolerated and for people to be polite, as I was to them. Why would I be friends, or actively keep trying to be friends, with those I have nothing in common with? I don't, and would hate, anyone to think they had to make extra efforts to socialise with me. I know I am "lucky" as a female with ASD, as I have learnt how to fit in as such, but still, my difficulties are still there.

They are my difficulties. No one else's. When I was a child, my parents facilitated socialising for my if I wanted it. We did not expect children to be able to do it, as I wouldn't expect it now.

I've said it before, and other people have picked up on this, I flourished with people like me, not people different to me. My tribe. As a teacher, this is where I think inclusion falls down. I wish I went to school with children like me, with my difficulties and also my interests and skills. My students who can spend time with similar students do so, so much better socially.

*Of course it’s unkind to not listen to someone when they try to speak with you and move away. Regardless of how politely you do it.

It isn’t unkind to move away from a situation that is making you feel uncomfortable.

As hard as it is for your son not to be included in break time games (and the adults should be helping to manage this) it is not the fault of small children that they want to leave the classroom and run around.*

But some people say they feel 'uncomfortable' as they think it's a valid excuse when they are actually just ignorant twats who want to get away from the weirdo. You can pretend all you like but this is just as common.

Feeling uncomfortable is often a feeling you get when you aren't used to something. Why avoid it and make those feeling deeper. Why not try and overcome your feelings of uncomfortableness in order to be comfortable, broaden your horizons and try new things. If a child is uncomfortable at school, do they just stop going?

I would say there are a number of children at my childrens’ school with physical disabilities who tend to do well, are very much included and popular. One of them is head girl. It tends to be SN that is harder due to it not being visible and possibly being misunderstood in terms of anti social or unwanted behaviour. The pupuls who tend to be given a wider berth are those who hit or are aggressive. This is understandable but I do think teachers should help in these scenarios to equip the pupils in knowing how to deal with such situations with compassion without compromising their own safety ( with support) Parents can do so much but it’s f you are not well versed in what is a complex area knowing what strategies to employ for a lay person isn’t obvious. Perhaps better education is needed for all parents and pupils? After all some of the lashing out maybe as a result of frustration of being misunderstood or left out. Vicious circle.

I think a lot of people in this thread think a lot of other people with SN are like this, not at a similar cognitive level to them etc therefore how can you have a meaningful friendship

I didn’t say that. I was talking about this particular individual. He was not someone with whom I could have a friendship along the lines of the friendships I have currently. I am not saying I couldn’t get to know him. I’m sure I could. But we are never going to be ‘friends’ in the sense I mean.

I know you were only referring to your experience. But it appears from the thread that most are talking about people like the chap you met. When a lot of parents here with children with SN are all different cognitively and I wonder if people with no experience in this area really realise how much high functioning, conversational, social autistic children are suffering at school.

Ginger - your child isn’t being excluded. He doesn’t want to play the games they are playing. You cant expect 7 year olds to not play tag because one person doesn’t want to. That person needs to find something else to do . Different kids like different things - there must be other children in the school who prefer to play the way he likes. He needs to find like minded people - in the meantime you really can’t expect every other child to stop doing what they enjoy.

I know you were only referring to your experience. But it appears from the thread that most are talking about people like the chap you met. When a lot of parents here with children with SN are all different cognitively and I wonder if people with no experience in this area really realise how much high functioning, conversational, social autistic children are suffering at school.

Well I definitely realise it.

You're really barking up the wrong tree. The parents on this thread are not the ones you need to worry about. To be honest I haven't met anyone that wouldn't take the approach of inclusion, explanation, encouragement etc. What you are point blank refusing to accept is that despite this approach your DC may still not find friendship because beyond doing what's been hammered already it doesn't guarantee friendships.

So yes you do sound like you would only be happy with forced friendships and the feelings of NT children coming second place to your DC's feelings. You are so angry (quite understandably! because what mother wouldn't be hurt by the disappointments faced by your DC) and you're demanding something that small children can't and shouldn't be pressured into delivering. Not intentionally just because they are still learning to manage themselves and as many have said adults struggle so why would you expect perfect outcomes from small children.

Should we teach our DC all the things being advised on this thread - yes

Does that approach guarantee friendship for your DC - no

sunshinedaisydo

I don’t think a young child is an “ignorant twat” for removing themselves from a situation like that, even if their feeling has no rational basis.

Interesting thread. I have noticed my children are unconsciously inclusive of children they have known since they were babies. A few families we know have children with social delays and sometimes challenging behaviour to the point I think my dds are sometimes over tolerant of them when I am not.

I notice that window has closed for them now and dd2 (6) comes home complaining almost daily from school about challenging behaviour from other children which she would tolerate from family friends. This is an observation not a judgement