To urge you to teach your children to be genuinely inclusive, not just polite?

[gingerginger2]

My kids are back at school this week (Scotland) and after a summer of seeing them without the context of their peers it’s a sadness again to see them interacting with other children.

On their own, they are sweet, silly, funny, kind, playful, interesting, creative, chatty. They are part of the world, full of wonder and learning and play.

But in the context of kids their age, they are different. They both have learning disabilities and dyspraxia.

They don’t know this though, they don’t quite realise they are “different” yet. They are little, they learn slowly, despite the constant lessons from society’s exclusions. They run up to their “friends” in such a carefree happy way, eager to talk, play, connect. It doesn’t seem to occur to them not to.

And when they do they mainly encounter silence. Uncomfortable polite looks. Or polite confused monosyllabic mumbles followed by eager escapes into actual easy friendships groups. Or at best a short conversation in a humouring tone, a tone learnt by imitating the tones adults take with small silly children.

There’s not really any unkindness. There’s just a refusal to actually engage, to get to know, to connect. An embarrassment and unwillingness to spend time with my children’s lack of social skills, messy clothes, an uncomfortableness at their invasion of their personal space. So a brief hello before getting on with actual friendships and relationships and life. An obvious desire to politely not engage. A smile with the lips not the eyes.

I’m amazed they don’t seem to realise that they’ve been snubbed again. But they din’t Mainly. Learning disability means everything is hard to learn I guess. But it’ heartbreaking to see they just carry on and continue to fling themselves at people, wide open, encountering boundaries wherever they go. I worry that soon they’ll start to realise and feel the pain of these rejections.

I worry too that maybe they do feel the pain. Maybe it goes somewhere deep, and maybe they are learning day by day that people don’t like them. That society isn’t for them.

I hate it.

Please can you teach your children to be more than polite and kind to their peers with disabilities? Please can you urge them to actually get to know them, to actually connect and include them? Even when they are messy, annoying, noisy and a bit weird. Even then?

How does ur child know that there is no common ground?

They don’t know.

I have no idea about the NT status I'd any of my dds friends it's not my business and it makes no difference to me. Into their 12 and 8 years of friendships I've only ever steered them away from.someone once and that's because they were being physically hurt. I have no idea if those children were NT or not. My advice would have been they same.

Some people reported some posts presumably but I've not seen any deleted (though it's rather a long thread and dipping in and out I might have missed the ones that were) not sure this constitutes as MNHQ reinforcing Your argument. They were just reminding people to stick to posting guidelines though the worst posts I've seen have been levelled at posters like Hercule and not the other way round!

How does ur child know that there is no common ground?

They don’t know.

And that is my point, if we teach our children to walk away they will never be able to even find common ground, but that interaction will not take place.

The fact that I have to keep repeating that and the fact that people seem to assuming it’s a binary choice between polite exclusion or forced insincere friendship at a cost to the NT child speaks volumes.

so are you saying these privileged children who just happen through no fault of thier own be to be nt don't get any choices about who they want be friends with?

I don't want to speak for the OP, but quite honestly, this question has been asked and answered so many times on this thread. And the answer is that of course everyone has the choice about whom they wish to be friends with. I haven't seen a single person on this thread state that anyone, child or adult, should be forced into a friendship (which would be essentially impossible anyway).

And that is my point, if we teach our children to walk away they will never be able to even find common ground, but that interaction will not take place.

And that is a shame. I am still not going to force my child to remain in situations where she feels uncomfortable or unsafe. I am happy to explore the reasons with her, to challenge her, to help her understand that her feelings might change if she gives it more time. But force her? Not in a million years.

No ones suggested they point screen and walk away.

You are assuming that in sharing a class and a group and having spoken to and played with most kids in the class at one point that they wouldnt know they had nothing in common.

What is it you think kids talk about when they see each other. Stuff they are interested in...

I suppose I’m asking that if the friendship hasn’t organically happened, for whatever reason, isn’t it still more likely to fail, even with the additional encouragement?

It just seems tough for the child to possibly experience rejection repeatedly because the other child(ren) subsequently decides the friendship isn’t one they’d like to pursue.

I suppose I’m asking whether engineering contact will just add the the opportunities the SN child has to experience rejection from other people.

Apologies for any clumsy wording

I would never want u too i dont why u keep insisting that is what is being asked. As its not. I also think its a shame that u child could miss out on experiences because of ur insistence that they could potentially be in danger or have a feeling of uncomfortable. As this is hypothetical, she could surprise u and feel at ease with a SN child. I hope she is.

I would never want u too i dont why u keep insisting that is what is being asked. As its not. I also think its a shame that u child could miss out on experiences because of ur insistence that they could potentially be in danger or have a feeling of uncomfortable. As this is hypothetical, she could surprise u and feel at ease with a SN child. I hope she is.

Then we have no issue. My child has a right to choose for herself whether to instigate or continue an interaction with any other child.

I have no reason to think she will be uncomfortable.

And the answer is that of course everyone has the choice about whom they wish to be friends with.

You keep contradicting yourselves though. The girl in question surely knows after 6 years of being in the same class whether she wants to be friends or not!! If after 6 years she is just polite and nothing more you should accept that no?

The problem with getting to know there is no common ground...

That happens with Nt children too! Your wanting forced conversations to find out if there is a common ground to start with but that’s not how it works. Unless your expecting some type of team building like they enforce on staff that everyone hates? My name is Mandy and I like Barbie dolls and my little pony type thing.

You over hear Jonny and James talking about dumper trucks, not your thing so you don’t go join in. It really is that simple in most playgrounds. You hear chat of what you like and you join in or you don’t. The chat normally happens because one child say have a dumper truck in the sand pit another child likes that too so joins in.

You see someone with a football so you ask to join in. That’s how the relationships start. A lot of them will of started at preschools so then you already have a pair of friends chatting and more joining in.

It has to come naturally otherwise it is forced, these children are already forced into classes of up to 30 they will not like or play with everyone it’s a sad fact of life. Nobody likes everyone they meet. I could only give you names of maybe 10 people in my entire primary school life.

I’ve finally stopped lurking to post, and I’m apologising in advance if I word it badly and inadvertently upset anyone, it’s not my intention.

Ime when it comes to children/ teens being inclusive of others, part of the problem is we focus on being kind, tolerant etc but without any deeper understanding or real feelings behind it. Being polite and friendly because it’s the kind or expected thing to do, rather than for the genuine benefit of the person on the receiving end. Admittedly that’s fine for casual interactions and far preferable to being a vile intolerant twat, but doesn’t really solve the problems so many pps have raised about genuine friendships.

Eg my dd (nt) has been accused in the past by many classmates of being mean to A (sn). When actually dd is just being direct because she understands A doesn’t pick up social nuances and both prefers and needs people to be clear.

So where dd would respond to a monologue she has no interest in with ‘actually I’m not really into x, tell me about y or shall we talk about z’, other dc in an attempt to be kind will listen till they can make an escape. Or if they can’t on a long trip or sharing a room, they get annoyed with A, whether they show it or not. And then do their best to limit further interactions. Granted that’s kinder than often happens with dc like A, but not ideal from the pov of A developing genuine friendships.

Whenever they mix up classes dd is always freshly accused of being rude, until other dc understand the sn and the way A wants to be treated, rather than the surface tolerance and faked interest. The dc who can get past the surface social differences know A has many qualities, but unfortunately most never get that far.

Unfortunately I’m not sure what the answer is. Plenty of dc are as kind, or kinder than my dd, and although plenty would stand up to nastiness, not all have the natural confidence to be the lone voice saying ‘I don’t like it when you do x, can we do a/b/c’ when many of their peers are keen to publicly demonstrate their inclusivity.

I thin @herculepoirot2 has been absolutely right about everything. I absolutely understand the OP's savage misery that her children are excluded and I'm sorry for her and for them. But as a mother she should understand I am never going to tell my child to let another child stand too close to her, shout at her, lay hands on her or anything else if she isn't happy about it. I will always expect her to be kind and polite to everyone. But to put herself in situations that make her unhappy, repeatedly and deliberately,in the hope that discomfort will somehow morph into comfort over time or be balanced out by some nebulous future benefit, to serve the OP's children's need to be included - basically to say their feelings matter more than hers when you get right down to it - no. It might be very noble, and it's a sacrifice she is free to make off her own back either now or when she's older; but I will never instruct or encourage her to put other people's wishes before her own, assuming she is never cruel or rude or dishonest. She is entitled to be happy and to seek happiness with all the (decent) means at her disposal, neurotypical or not. I am her mother. My job is to protect her and to promote her interests and to make her strong and self confident and assertive. Not to make her into a martyred saint at age 5.

I posted before saying that my ds has no SN but is still different enough to not really fit in. I wish that school would offer more opportunities for him to show the things that he is good at and interested in, rather than only the very narrow mainstream/"popular" things (fucking football to name just one) which mean he is always a bit of an outsider.
Outside of school he gets on with all sorts of kids. I think that it certainly would be possible to encourage more openness and inclusion within the classroom and I agree OP that it would probably benefit everyone in the end.

I think the OP is right that only being tolerated is a miserable way to live. It isn’t just kids with sn though. So many children (and adults) have this problem for more reasons than you might expect. Everyone being polite is okay but more people making an effort to try and get to know you would be better.

The best thing though as so many folks who have been the child in this situation have already said is finding those who are like you and like the things you like.

As a concept I’m not sure how helpful inclusion is in schools. I think I’d have preferred to be with more folks like me. But diversity is also good... just hard if you are the minority.

It just seems tough for the child to possibly experience rejection repeatedly because the other child(ren) subsequently decides the friendship isn’t one they’d like to pursue.

We are talking about children who face daily rejection anyway. It sounds as though you are saying it's better not to try the sort of active inclusion the OP is talking about because it might lead to more rejection. I would say that for the majority of children it's much preferable to at least try.

Here's a scenario that will be depressingly familiar to many on this thread:

Parent A (with faux concern): We didn't invite your child to the birthday party because we knew he wouldn't have enjoyed it.

Parent B (inwardly seething): Actually, I think he would have had a wonderful time.

Compare to the following:

Parent A (with genuine concern): We would really like to invite your child to my child's birthday party. Is there anything we can do to make things more comfortable for him?

Parent B (after recovering from the shock of being asked): No, nothing I can think of. Thank you so much for asking. He would love to come to the party.

OR

Parent B: Thank you so much for asking. Actually, it would be very helpful if you could do XYZ (fill in with specifics for individual child). If not, I completely understand.

None of this means that the hypothetical birthday party would be guaranteed to be a success. But if people pretend that exclusion is for the sake of the child with SN, without even contemplating the idea that perhaps it is their own prejudice that needs to be examined, nothing will ever change.

TheKitchenWitch I agree, local schools here are very narrow places ime.

You keep contradicting yourselves though. The girl in question surely knows after 6 years of being in the same class whether she wants to be friends or not!! If after 6 years she is just polite and nothing more you should accept that no?

Absolutely no contradiction. That particular example from the OP was about walking next to another child and chatting for a few minutes. That has nothing to do with insisting they become friends.

And as the OP has said, that was just one example of many. When your child faces constant, unrelenting social rejection, it should not be too much to ask that NT children and their parents try to do more than "politely" ignore and exclude that child.

Whytho, that is an incredibly hurtful thing to say.

And weaningwoes, words fail me. All children like mine are is a a discomfort, an unhappy situation, to children like yours. That stand to close, are too loud, lay their hands on her????? MNHQ have already commented asking people not be be prejudiced and mindful of the feelings of parents of children with disabilities, but you obviously think that doesn’t apply to you.

Hercule, you have no reason to believe your daughter would be uncomfortable???? After 30 odd pages of you repeatedly defending your three year old’s hypothetical right to exclude SN children when she stops being a toddler??? Well that’s Good then. Surely if you have no reason to think she’d be unconfortable one post would have sufficed?

It’s so fucking obvious that many of you don’t know how lucky you and your children are. For the grace of god go I and all that.

This thread is almost full and how depressing it has been. Mumsnet should be ashamed of itself.

And that is my point, if we teach our children to walk away they will never be able to even find common ground, but that interaction will not take place

I don't think anyone here is teaching their child to walk away. They're just saying that if interaction happens that they're uncomfortable with (after adults have done all they can to encourage a connection) then it's okay if they do so politely.

Hercule, you have no reason to believe your daughter would be uncomfortable???? After 30 odd pages of you repeatedly defending your three year old’s hypothetical right to exclude SN children when she stops being a toddler??? Well that’s Good then. Surely if you have no reason to think she’d be unconfortable one post would have sufficed?

I haven’t defended her right to exclude anyone. And the fact that I have no reason to think she will be uncomfortable doesn’t mean she wouldn’t be. If she is, I support her right to withdraw from the situation.