To urge you to teach your children to be genuinely inclusive, not just polite?

[gingerginger2]

My kids are back at school this week (Scotland) and after a summer of seeing them without the context of their peers it’s a sadness again to see them interacting with other children.

On their own, they are sweet, silly, funny, kind, playful, interesting, creative, chatty. They are part of the world, full of wonder and learning and play.

But in the context of kids their age, they are different. They both have learning disabilities and dyspraxia.

They don’t know this though, they don’t quite realise they are “different” yet. They are little, they learn slowly, despite the constant lessons from society’s exclusions. They run up to their “friends” in such a carefree happy way, eager to talk, play, connect. It doesn’t seem to occur to them not to.

And when they do they mainly encounter silence. Uncomfortable polite looks. Or polite confused monosyllabic mumbles followed by eager escapes into actual easy friendships groups. Or at best a short conversation in a humouring tone, a tone learnt by imitating the tones adults take with small silly children.

There’s not really any unkindness. There’s just a refusal to actually engage, to get to know, to connect. An embarrassment and unwillingness to spend time with my children’s lack of social skills, messy clothes, an uncomfortableness at their invasion of their personal space. So a brief hello before getting on with actual friendships and relationships and life. An obvious desire to politely not engage. A smile with the lips not the eyes.

I’m amazed they don’t seem to realise that they’ve been snubbed again. But they din’t Mainly. Learning disability means everything is hard to learn I guess. But it’ heartbreaking to see they just carry on and continue to fling themselves at people, wide open, encountering boundaries wherever they go. I worry that soon they’ll start to realise and feel the pain of these rejections.

I worry too that maybe they do feel the pain. Maybe it goes somewhere deep, and maybe they are learning day by day that people don’t like them. That society isn’t for them.

I hate it.

Please can you teach your children to be more than polite and kind to their peers with disabilities? Please can you urge them to actually get to know them, to actually connect and include them? Even when they are messy, annoying, noisy and a bit weird. Even then?

It's the subtext of this entire thread.....

Interesting. From what I can see, the subtext is that politeness and courtesy is insufficient and children should be forced into relationships they might not otherwise choose. This is profoundly unhealthy, especially for the SN child, who will now require/expect people in authority to arrange for their relationships rather than learning how themselves.

Nobody has said that SN kids are loud, violent and going to inevitably have no friends. Most people know a SN child who has friends because their SN don't manifest like that. My youngest spent 7 years of primary with a boy who had autism and dyspraxia. He was popular as he was smiley,friendly, polite and kind. While he did have meltdowns at school, it never resulted in violence against other kids. His quirks were easy to accommodate for other kids- they knew that he didn't like play that involves physical contact or shouting so he'd join in Tag and the other boys wouldn't go after him etc Stories like this isn't going to help OP and her kids.

My DD has been diagnosed with autism at just three and a half. She appears 'normal'
(I hate that word!) most of the time but she struggles massively in social situations and with her peers in busy, noisy settings. The issues shes got have only come to light since she started playgroup a few months ago.

She like a different child at home, or in her comfort zone.

When she's with me, either at home or at our local park she happily plays with a couple of the other girls from playgroup (who are also age 3). However in playgroup she simply cannot cope with the busyness, noise etc and will often cry and tell the other children including her little friends to go away. She's got a 1-1 support next term which will hopefully help.

I know she's going to struggle to make friends and it hurts me to my core. I'm really lucky that the mums of the other girls are understanding of her condition and actually the children all seem to rub along well. We have zero interaction issues outside of playgroup. However I am also understanding that these little girls are tiny themselves and that at some point are probably going to tire of being told to go away or being screamed at when they're in that setting.

It works both ways. Yes, we all need to teach our children to be kind, patient and to include those with additional needs. However us parents of SEN children cannot expect other children (SEN or not) to be 1) as understanding as adults, it's completely unrealistic and expecting an empathy, maturity and level of consideration well outside their development level or 2) constantly in the firing line be that with yelling, unwanted hugs or whatever.

DD also needs space. She cannot cope with unfamiliar children too in her face, or who try to hug or kiss her. Again from an SEN child or not, I won't force her to tolerate any unwanted physical interaction. We don't force her to accept unwanted hugs or kisses from anyone - me included. I wouldn't hesitate to tell someone to move out of my space or refuse an unwanted hug so I don't expect her to have to put up with that either. That's not a kindness issue, that's a consent and a body autonomy issue.

It's quite clear on this thread that parents of NT children see their children as better, more entitled, more superior than those with SN

I haven't seen a single instance of that attitude.

I find the post from MNHQ odd. The anger and rudeness is being directed at the posters giving the NT child's perspective, not at those who have children with SN.

*It's the subtext of this entire thread.....

Interesting. From what I can see, the subtext is that politeness and courtesy is insufficient and children should be forced into relationships they might not otherwise choose. This is profoundly unhealthy, especially for the SN child, who will now require/expect people in authority to arrange for their relationships rather than learning how themselves*

Whereas I see it as the OP asking children to look beyond the obvious differences and get to know children with SEN like they do any other children and see if friendship develops and if it does, great and if it doesn't, no biggie (her words). Parents of NT children have taken this to mean their superior children must be forced into friendships. Coupled with endless posts on how children with SN have been in their personal space, violent, nothing in common to excuse why it would be inappropriate to 'force friendships' when that was never what was suggested.

*It's quite clear on this thread that parents of NT children see their children as better, more entitled, more superior than those with SN

I haven't seen a single instance of that attitude.

I find the post from MNHQ odd. The anger and rudeness is being directed at the posters giving the NT child's perspective, not at those who have children with SN.*

Yet there are other posts saying they can see the same thing, I'm not in isolation. That you don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

And the insinuation that all SN kids are violent, personal space invaders who have nothing in common with anyone is quite frankly abhorrent

No one has said this. My comments have only been in response to those who have said their SN kids ARE space invaders.

The OP with her kid who she admitted walks too close. The poster who’s kid loves to give “affectionate cuddles”. Honestly, what is the appropriate reaction to these things? I’m genuinely curious to know?

When my son was a lot younger he often was too close but we taught him the arms length rule. Maybe all children should be taught and stick to the same rule as many NT children are too over friendly as well. They should be taught why some people get too close (sensory issues often) and that it doesn't make them a bad person. You teach them words to explain that 'they'd prefer if if the other child stays arms length away thanks all the same and then we can get on with playing happily together' and that laughing at them/running away/ignoring them hurts peoples feelings.

I always have encouraged them to be inclusive and the older ones always were, they have both left school now

My younger two both have send, the eldest mild ld the youngest asd

Luckily they go to a mainstream school that has a higher than average intake of children with send so. Ds3 has 6 dc in his year who have ld/asd that I know about and ds4 has 5

The only thing that people have said that could be seen as an entitlement, is that their children are entitled to their own friendships and boundaries. And posters who are on the autism spectrum (and some parents of such children) have posted that they want that same entitlement too. So it's not exclusive to parents of NT children at all.

Whereas I see it as the OP asking children to look beyond the obvious differences and get to know children with SEN like they do any other children and see if friendship develops and if it does, great and if it doesn't, no biggie (her words). Parents of NT children have taken this to mean their superior children must be forced into friendships. Coupled with endless posts on how children with SN have been in their personal space, violent, nothing in common to excuse why it would be inappropriate to 'force friendships' when that was never what was suggested.

Spot on.

Most kids will be tolerating more than half of their class (of 30) By tolerating I mean they don't dislike those kids but have no opinion of them either way as they don't interact with them so don't have a positive or negative view on those kids.

Personally it would help me if specifics could be explained. If my NT child thinks that another is too loud or too touchy, what should they do? They wouldn't want to make another child angry or cry so their reaction would be to grin and bare it or get away at the soonest possibility. From the other child's POV this may be rude but it's understandable from my child's POV too. They wouldn't want another child to tell them what's "wrong" with them so wouldn't come out and say "Don't shout so loud" until they were much older and physically defend themselves if the other kid got angry.

My autistic son would prefer kindly worded honesty - 'ooh when you use a really loud voice, it makes it difficult for me to hear what you're saying and it sounds really interesting. Could you say it again but a bit quieter?' Worded like that, he'd laugh at himself and try again quieter and remember that some people don't like loud and it will embed the social norms more for him.

Unfortunately society nowadays is based on passive aggression and taking the piss behind peoples back.

It's the subtext of this entire thread.....

Totally disagree. I think this is what is causing some/all of the friction here; people are inferring meaning that is not intended. On both sides!

Yes I think most people have been polite and kin on the thread whether a parent of a child with SN wanting other children to keep distance and not touch their child or a parent of another child whose own child does not want a cuddle from the well meaning SN child. I think most of us want to learn and help our children to learn to treat everyone well.

Here is an example from this week on a public bus (I am abroad at present) . A 10 year old English girl got on with her parents sitting in the row in front of us, who had special needs. She was making unusual sounds which was not a problem for anyone on the bus. The bus was very crowded so all the aisles were full. She didn't like anyone to hold on to the handle in front of her seat and yet people would fall over if they didn't hold it so she gripped their arms and tried to move them. No one was nasty to her. Most people moved down the bus if they could so they were away from her and her parents at one point when she was making marks on a lady's arm removed her hand from the arm. What should we do in that kind of situation? In my view people did the right thing - move down the bus a bit as clearly she didn't like people near and they would not know how she might react next.

On children forming friendships however by all means encourage them to get to know all children but it is not something that can be directed. A child in a class of 20 with no one with SN will only want to be friends with one or two because Jane is smiley or they like Janet's hair or Jimmy tells good jokes.

Sincere thanks to all who have supported my right to state my (quite reasonable) defence of my child’s right to make her own decisions and choose her own friends. I find some of the accusations and insinuations of disablism, ableism and racism that are present here to be entirely without foundation in anything I have said. Apologies for buggering off - we were out for the afternoon.

I too find the MNHQ post odd.

I’ve spent ages reading this thread. It’s been incredibly eye opening and thought provoking. The OPs first post made me feel incredibly sad.

I don’t agree with the pasting that herculepoirot2 has received by a lot of posters. I think she raises some valid points about a child’s autonomy and right to choose their own friendships.

My DS is 8 and has been in a class with a girl with Down Syndrome since nursery. When they were younger they got on quite well and he would ‘help’ her in class (as much as a small child can). Off the back of this thread I asked him whether he still plays with her and he said that he doesn’t because ‘we have nothing in common any more’. I would imagine it would be quite painful for both parties to try and force a friendship that has no longer has base of common interests.

My DS best friend has autism and they get along brilliantly, due to a shared love of gaming. His friend will often dominate the conversations with his love of a particular topic and if he, and his other pal in their gang, have had a enough hearing about it they’ll just say ‘James, stop talking about trucks now please - it’s been half an hour’ and deal with it in their own way.

God knows if this is the right approach, after reading this thread but I think the whole subject is a minefield to navigate successfully. I do think that ‘forced’ interactions can’t be good for either the SN or NT child though, surely nobody wants to feel like an obligation to be met?

One thing that I did wonder is, if we engineer ‘opportunities’ for friendship to develop and it doesn’t on the side of the NT child but the SN child would like it to continue, wouldn’t it be more hurtful for the SN child to be ‘dropped’ after a while? My NT children have been dropped by their friends at points, and it’s been upsetting but usually for genuine enough reasons.

It seems such an emotional gamble to try and artificially engineer something that may not have otherwise developed from genuine mutual interests or a spark?

Maybe I’m not explaining myself properly but I’m desperately trying to avoid offending anybody!

Not surprised that even with the reinforcement of MNHQ, some posters can’t see past their own noses. As they are the prevalent attitude that creates the kind of society that children like mine are excluded from.

And it’s all thought to be ok, because of politeness and personal choice and boundaries.

It’s so sad.

I’ll say again, it’s the privileged deciding their comfort and choices are more important than the less privileged right to be an active part of society.

One thing that I did wonder is, if we engineer ‘opportunities’ for friendship to develop and it doesn’t on the side of the NT child but the SN child would like it to continue, wouldn’t it be more hurtful for the SN child to be ‘dropped’ after a while? My NT children have been dropped by their friends at points, and it’s been upsetting but usually for genuine enough reasons.

In general, I would say it depends on the child and the situation. But are you saying that it's better not to try to interact with a child who has SN, because the friendship might not work out? Genuine question, I'm just trying to understand what you are asking.

I’ll say again, it’s the privileged deciding their comfort and choices are more important than the less privileged right to be an active part of society.

Very true. And very sad for all of us, including the more privileged.

I’ll say again, it’s the privileged deciding their comfort and choices are more important than the less privileged right to be an active part of society

You are being a bit unfair here

Polite interaction isnt enough
Being kind and tolerant isnt enough
You dont want forced friendships yet are not happy with children deciding after interactions and conversations that they have no common.ground.

And you think any child regardless if any issues and struggles they may have, has no right to decide friendships arent for them.

I'm.not quite sure what's left ...

What do you want

All the people saying that a child has a right to walk away when there personal space is being invaded. Or they feel uncomfortable, How does ur child know that there is no common ground?

Copy and paste again

^I don’t think they should be forced to be friends. Friendship is further down the line than what I am talking about. I think that they should be encouraged and expected to be more than polite and tolerant.

I think they should make an effort to be inclusive in their seeking of friendship and connection, and be educated to know that getting to know SN peers can require different skills and more effort than getting to know.

None of that means forcing them to be friends with someone they don’t click with.

This effort and understanding may not result in a friendship ( as many have rightly said, this requires a spark, a connection). but the experience of being inclusive socially rather than just polite will almost certainly result In a broadening of their experience and a growth in empathy, which can only be good for them. And also good for the SN child, who might not have a strong friendship, but has had the chance to practise a social connection and experience being included. And good for society too, that people are educated to know that doing good for others and doing good for society is important. ^

And as Zazie the cat said earlier on in the thread

^I think what you are looking for OP is that parents encourage something like “being a good neighbour” in their children. It’s more than being polite and kind but isn’t quite as much as friendship (although it can develop into friendship in time if it goes that way and people want it to- it actually makes future friendship more likely and possible).

It’s about being helpful, respectful, understanding, taking the time to get to know someone a bit, keeping an eye out for them, having their back when needs be, sharing knowledge, skills and life events. As I write that, it’s a bit like being a good colleague too, building a sense of community, having a bit of common purpose ( even if the common purpose is just getting through school reasonably intact having learned a bit on the way).

Sadly, as society becoming faster paced and more transient, the skills of being a good neighbour or a good colleague, are diminishing throughout society.

That said, we’d all benefit if good neighbourliness became a bit more prevalent.^

Gingerginger2 so are you saying these privileged children who just happen through no fault of thier own be to be nt don't get any choices about who they want be friends with?. My child is not friends with the sn child in thier class because they have different interests. That's fine with me.