To urge you to teach your children to be genuinely inclusive, not just polite?

[gingerginger2]

My kids are back at school this week (Scotland) and after a summer of seeing them without the context of their peers it’s a sadness again to see them interacting with other children.

On their own, they are sweet, silly, funny, kind, playful, interesting, creative, chatty. They are part of the world, full of wonder and learning and play.

But in the context of kids their age, they are different. They both have learning disabilities and dyspraxia.

They don’t know this though, they don’t quite realise they are “different” yet. They are little, they learn slowly, despite the constant lessons from society’s exclusions. They run up to their “friends” in such a carefree happy way, eager to talk, play, connect. It doesn’t seem to occur to them not to.

And when they do they mainly encounter silence. Uncomfortable polite looks. Or polite confused monosyllabic mumbles followed by eager escapes into actual easy friendships groups. Or at best a short conversation in a humouring tone, a tone learnt by imitating the tones adults take with small silly children.

There’s not really any unkindness. There’s just a refusal to actually engage, to get to know, to connect. An embarrassment and unwillingness to spend time with my children’s lack of social skills, messy clothes, an uncomfortableness at their invasion of their personal space. So a brief hello before getting on with actual friendships and relationships and life. An obvious desire to politely not engage. A smile with the lips not the eyes.

I’m amazed they don’t seem to realise that they’ve been snubbed again. But they din’t Mainly. Learning disability means everything is hard to learn I guess. But it’ heartbreaking to see they just carry on and continue to fling themselves at people, wide open, encountering boundaries wherever they go. I worry that soon they’ll start to realise and feel the pain of these rejections.

I worry too that maybe they do feel the pain. Maybe it goes somewhere deep, and maybe they are learning day by day that people don’t like them. That society isn’t for them.

I hate it.

Please can you teach your children to be more than polite and kind to their peers with disabilities? Please can you urge them to actually get to know them, to actually connect and include them? Even when they are messy, annoying, noisy and a bit weird. Even then?

I haven't read the entire thread as it's very long and I'm pressed for time right now...I definitely will return to read it all when I get the chance.

That said, missbattenburg has raised a very valid point in her post on page 2. My own DS's (now teens) have interacted with children of all abilities from a very young age. They have benefited from this in so many ways, patience, empathy...

If I may I'd like to share one story from DS1 when he was 4. We were attending the 5th birthday party of a friends daughter. Born prematurely there was an incident in the hospital that resulted in her having serious multiple disabilities, she was lucky to survive. The party was on a lovely spring day and there were plenty of games and activities to appeal to preschool aged children. The birthday girl couldn't participate in these activities but lay on a picnic rug. At one point in the party I looked across to see DS1 laying next to her on the picnic rug, holding her hand and chatting away. I commented to him later that it was nice of him to take some time to spend with her. His reply "I know she can't speak to me Mummy but I think she likes when I talk with her, because she smiles and squeezes my hand." Whatever his achievements and at 18 he's had a few already. This. This one has made me most proud.

I just want to say thank you to gingerginger2 for this thread. Your posts articulate clearly and eloquently exactly what is at stake for children with disabilities. Some people, alas, will never understand, as this thread illustrates. But I think others may read your words and have a bit of a lightbulb moment about the concept of active inclusion.

Thanks also to SinkGirl, NoSauce, formerbabe, and others for your excellent posts.

I think there are so many different types of disabilities and characteristics that manifest themselves in multiple ways that it’s impossible to find a one size fits all solution. NT children struggle more with hidden disabilities I think as they might not realise that an SN child is struggling for the reasons they are. They may see them as unfriendly/ overly friendly but judging them against an NT bar which is clearly not fair. However my youngest recently attended an activity camp which he loves but came across a boy there who seemed to target him ffrom the first day with aggression both verbal and physical. I was told later the boy had SN so I advised my son to try to find some common ground, be kind and understand that the little boy wasn’t doing it to be unkind. For a day it worked and they seemed to form a friendship but then it went back to punching, hitting name calling from the boy. Whilst my heart goes out to him I can’t in fairness ask my boy to continue to subject himself to this for the benefit of the other child. After this my boy was so upset he didn’t want to finish the activity which was difficult and disappointing on a number of levels so he didn’t go back. As a parent your priority is to protect your kids so no I won’t make him continue to challenge himself and bend himself out of shape if it causes that much distress to him. However this is certainly not a case that occurs all the time, there are many many instances where there is no reason at all where NT children shouldn’t be more actively inclusive. But it shouldn’t be at a great personal expense mentally or physically to them to do so.

@DanaPhoenix - you have raised one incredible boy there, that must have been beautiful to see, I'd have been so proud too.

I can't add much other than I have NT DC and also a DC with severe SN that will never improve. In some ways I am glad that her learning difficulties are so severe (and not visible) that she will hopefully not only never be aware of her disability but also the attitude of others around her.

It breaks my heart to see other kids (of all ages and some adults!) weirded out by her trying to give them a genuinely affectionate cuddle and them recoiling in horror. But right now it doesn't break her heart. I hope to god it stays that way. Rejection and loneliness are absolute torture for a human being, arguably worse than a disability.

HerculePoirot has been treated appallingly for making sound points that are about promoting inclusion but not to the detriment of her child.

Oh, give over. She has not been treated appallingly. She has been disagreed with. I absolutely disagree with her fundamental position, and I would not say she has made any sound points at all. Many of her posts are master classes in whataboutery and have absolutely nothing to do with the OP's very clear, yet nuanced posts.

She has not been treated appallingly. She has been disagreed with. I absolutely disagree with her fundamental position, and I would not say she has made any sound points at all. Many of her posts are master classes in whataboutery and have absolutely nothing to do with the OP's very clear, yet nuanced posts.

Really? I don't agree with some of what she's said but again, I don't agree with this at all. I think she's been totally piled on, asked countless 'whataboutery' questions, and answered them clearly and honestly. All because she disagrees with the OP. I think she has raised some sound point. I think the OP has raised some sound points. I think the thread has been interesting, though provoking and has certainly made me reflect. From both sides.

So, it order to protect children from terrible abuse, that is usually carried out by nt adult males, we should further isolate and exclude disabled children.

Yep, that makes sense...

Yes, Hercule has been treated horribly on this thread, for raising inconvenient truths. I am extremely impressed by how polite and patient she has been in stating her case in the face of wilful misunderstanding.

@formerbabe

*So, it order to protect children from terrible abuse, that is usually carried out by nt adult males, we should further isolate and exclude disabled children.

Yep, that makes sense...*

No, but we should teach them that if ANYONE touches them and they don't want it, they should say no and/or remove themselves from the situation. So not to assume that because the child is disabled they will do this and preemptively exclude them, obviously, but if they DO do this, that our child doesn't have to put up with it and deliberately seek out more interactions with that person just because they are disabled.

My dc are inclusive of everyone. It helps massively that they went to school that had a lovely additional learning centre. They are also very kind children.

No, but we should teach them that if ANYONE touches them and they don't want it, they should say no and/or remove themselves from the situation.

Surely noone disagrees with this?

@HollyGoLoudly1

Surely noone disagrees with this?

If that's the case then why are so many on here so offended by people saying their child is allowed to avoid someone or disengage with someone that keeps touching them against their will, because that person is disabled?

Have you thought of moving school.

I say this as DD and ds attended a small school for the first few years from the reception class and i don't recognise the attitude towards children with disabilities.

There were children with autism who had a helper in the class with them and the other children treated them with kindness. They played together and were very patient with them if they struggled to find words.
One of the mums actually said she worried about sending her ds into a main stream school but everyone had been so wonderful to them.

Contrast that to the school they then attended.

Ds who has ADHD and dyslexia was beaten up because he couldn't read and the HT said "Well he can't read" and when the boys were pointed out to him by another mother who had to drag these boys off my ds he told her that "she must be mistaken as those boys are good boys they go to church every Sunday"

Sometimes you don't realise how much a difference there can be between schools

It's quite clear on this thread that parents of NT children see their children as better, more entitled, more superior than those with SN. A lot of what is said is basically the same as racism if you ignore the semantics of the title.

Anyone who is anyway different from what society (disgustingly) feels is 'normal' should be, in the same way as everyone else, given the chance to get to know people, for people to take an interest and see if friendship develops. If it doesn't, fine and if it does, great.

Sadly for most people who are 'different', the 'normal' people see the difference and the process stops dead. Basically, the same as racism.

People are trying to excuse their uncomfortableness about this truth by saying it's all about forcing friendship when it was never, ever about that.

My son has additional needs. He is non verbal and uses an ipad with speech software to communicate. I don't expect anyone to befriend him because he is different. I make sure he has opportunities to socialise in an understanding environment with those with similar needs and others who understand his differences and strengths.

What i don't expect is for the names children call him when we go the park or soft play. I don't expect other children to mimic the voice of his ipad or take it from him and run off because it is amusing to them or they want to have ago. I also don't appreciate people ignoring him when he says hello to them using his communication aid, they wouldn't ignore a verbal child. He is no different.

And the insinuation that all SN kids are violent, personal space invaders who have nothing in common with anyone is quite frankly abhorrent. Shame on you.

Glad to see the This Is My Child campaign is still having such an impact on MN. Someone clearly buried it down the back of the sofa

@sunshinedaisydo who has said that all SN are violent? I think you’re getting carried away with yourself. You won’t be putting your shame on anyone here as no one has said that. I gave one example of how I won’t make my child tolerate being badly treated in the name of acceptance. No shame there.

Nobody is saying all of those children are overly touchy or shouty or have nothin in common. It’s just that those can be issues.

Remove the additional needs part and you wouldn’t be friends with someone you had nothing in common with. If someone had a tendency to be overly loud again you might reduce the time you spent in their presence even if you did actually like the person.

People are getting so worked up over the disabled part you are forgetting the basic interaction part. Not many people are going to look at a child and go nope not my type because they are disabled. There is going to be something that they dislike or find uncomfortable ok the thing they are uncomfortable with might be because of the disability or might be why they have nothing in common but that’s not any bodies fault.

That’s why we have polite interactions.

Pamplemoisecat- that sounds like its hit a nerve there.

Madfrogs - but you're ignoring that fact that countless people are saying that a lot of children won't even get to the stage of finding out if they have anything in common because of the SN. You're right. Nothing in common, no friendship, that's obvious.

It’s ok not to want hugs. We should be teaching our kids it is ok not to want hugs.

Absolutely. I have 3 dcs - 1 NT and 2 with SNs. 1 of my dcs with SNs is very huggy, which frustratingly the school seemed to encourage and then tell him off for in different situations, which confused him endlessly. I have had the consent discussion with all of my dcs, and finally, at 13 and 10, my youngest dcs with SNs understand better (my oldest is an adult and has understood this for years). If they feel like they want to hug someone, they will ask politely if they can hug them and will happily accept a no as they understand that some people will be uncomfortable with a hug and that's okay. A suggestion of a handshake or high five is brilliant and just as good as a hug as far as they are concerned. They still can sometimes get in others' personal space, however, that's a work in progress at this point. They've improved quite a lot since they were younger, but still have impulse control issues so may forget.

I'm still working my way through the thread, but I get what the OP is saying. School "inclusion" was not horribly helpful, and they approached it in a "let's all be nice to XXX as they are autistic" way which ended up with the girls being "carers" to my dcs (which I didn't want) and boys bullying them. It led to my dcs being viewed as "lesser" and treated almost like a class pet, which is not IMO inclusive. I don't know what the answer is, but it would be nice to see people make an effort to get to know the child behind the disability - if adults made this effort more, then I'd like to think that it would seem more natural to children to do so.

And the insinuation that all SN kids are violent, personal space invaders who have nothing in common with anyone is quite frankly abhorrent

Eh? Who said this?

*And the insinuation that all SN kids are violent, personal space invaders who have nothing in common with anyone is quite frankly abhorrent

Eh? Who said this?*

It's the subtext of this entire thread.....