To urge you to teach your children to be genuinely inclusive, not just polite?

[gingerginger2]

My kids are back at school this week (Scotland) and after a summer of seeing them without the context of their peers it’s a sadness again to see them interacting with other children.

On their own, they are sweet, silly, funny, kind, playful, interesting, creative, chatty. They are part of the world, full of wonder and learning and play.

But in the context of kids their age, they are different. They both have learning disabilities and dyspraxia.

They don’t know this though, they don’t quite realise they are “different” yet. They are little, they learn slowly, despite the constant lessons from society’s exclusions. They run up to their “friends” in such a carefree happy way, eager to talk, play, connect. It doesn’t seem to occur to them not to.

And when they do they mainly encounter silence. Uncomfortable polite looks. Or polite confused monosyllabic mumbles followed by eager escapes into actual easy friendships groups. Or at best a short conversation in a humouring tone, a tone learnt by imitating the tones adults take with small silly children.

There’s not really any unkindness. There’s just a refusal to actually engage, to get to know, to connect. An embarrassment and unwillingness to spend time with my children’s lack of social skills, messy clothes, an uncomfortableness at their invasion of their personal space. So a brief hello before getting on with actual friendships and relationships and life. An obvious desire to politely not engage. A smile with the lips not the eyes.

I’m amazed they don’t seem to realise that they’ve been snubbed again. But they din’t Mainly. Learning disability means everything is hard to learn I guess. But it’ heartbreaking to see they just carry on and continue to fling themselves at people, wide open, encountering boundaries wherever they go. I worry that soon they’ll start to realise and feel the pain of these rejections.

I worry too that maybe they do feel the pain. Maybe it goes somewhere deep, and maybe they are learning day by day that people don’t like them. That society isn’t for them.

I hate it.

Please can you teach your children to be more than polite and kind to their peers with disabilities? Please can you urge them to actually get to know them, to actually connect and include them? Even when they are messy, annoying, noisy and a bit weird. Even then?

Formerbabe - no one is suggesting all SN children are aggressive, loud etc. If your child is being excluded then either she is being bullied or something else is going on is she doesn’t share the same interests etc. Presumably you have a good idea of what the issue is?

I'm afraid some posters on here don't seem to understand these dilemmas and come across as though their children's needs are more important than everyone else's.

The irony in this statement as palpable, alongside the assumption that spending time with disabled children means being hit or shouted at - my kids are hit at and shouted at my NT kids at nursery all the time, they’re not the ones doing the hurting or shouting!

No one has said that kindness and understanding is not the right way to behave, inclusivity - when everyone is included is also right

It depends what your definition of inclusivity is. If you think it’s ok for a disabled child to not be invited to their classmates party when everyone else has, because they’re acknowledged and spoken to for example then we’re worlds apart.

I don't know your dd or her peers so I can't explain it. I do understand how it feels though, my own ds is excluded too even still as a teenager. He isn't loud or physical either, but nor does he share interests with most of his peers or come across very well.

The sad fact is that even when children are supported as far as possible to have positive interactions with everyone, people will gravitate towards others that they feel happy and comfortable around. Bridging the gap between being polite and kind and being actual friends seems impossible.

You say you want more than basic manners, tolerance and kindness, but not forced friendships. So what doesn't that actually look like in reality? How do you make that happen amongst children that already have a lot to learn and understand?

OP I suspect that you're unusual in that you are happy to discuss your children's needs with randoms in the school playground. As a person with NT kids I would have assumed that it's private medical information that sometimes people feel annoyed by having to explain. In addition I think that a lot of diagnoses aren't made until older and I wouldn't want to bring something like this up with a parent who's in denial or genuinely might not know.

I've had 3 kids go through primary school and the schools have taken the "private medical diagnosis" view of classmates with Special Needs. My youngest was at school with a child who had autism and dyspraxia and the school did a PSHE session with the class during Autism Awareness Week but the older 2 have never had this sort of awareness teaching even though I suspect that some of their classmates had issues like ADHD.

Midday Supervisors are not trained in SN either. If the child with ADHD gets shouty they are told to play with other kids etc Somebody mentioned the idea of having a scale of 1-10 when hugging someone. That would need adult input. A NT child who's hugged unexpectedly probably thinks "Running away is rude so I'll grin and bare it" rather than come out and say "Don't hug me"

The most inclusive strategies that I've seen is an area of the playground where adults (or y6) do organised playground games like What's the time Mr Wolf? Anybody can join in.

I've seen Buddy Benches too. You sit on there if you haven't got anyone to play with and a y6 who is on duty for that playtime will chat and play or direct to the organised games area.

My youngest's school had a quiet area called The Courtyard. There's no running or shouting allowed and it's basically a quiet place to play. There's a Reading Area with books if that's more appealing and there was no social stigma picking it over the normal playground.

OP have you considered that the other children are not forming connections with yours not because of SN but because there is simply nothing to connect over eg no shared interests or favourite club to discuss

It must just be a coincidence then that so many children with sn experience the same thing.

@MaryBerrysBomberJacket

I thought your post was articulate and incredibly honest and raises some interesting points. I fear it will be overlooked in the bunfight against Hercule.

no one is suggesting all SN children are aggressive, loud etc.

No, but some are, and it is as a direct result of their disability. So what then? Is it only the non physical quiet children with disabilities that deserve this extra effort? Surely being inclusive should extend to everyone?

I’ve seen both sides of this. Both of my sons have aspergers. They didn’t make friends well at school as they were seen as being “weird” and they didn’t share interests with anyone else.

At one point a little girl became obsessed with my eldest son and wanted to be his friend ... DS simply didn’t like her. She had no friends (like him) but DS was happy on his own ... the teachers forced DS to play with this girl and I put a stop to it. You can’t force friendships.

Okay, I'm disabled so my kids probably are more comfortable with people being different and have no "coolness" anxiety about being seen with someone different.

If, as in the OP's scenario, they were on their way to primary and a child in their form, with SENs, who they have known for many years and who they absolutely know poses no threat, started chatting on to them about their holiday, I absolutely would expect them to respond and engage and be nice.

And if they felt a bit embarrassed or bored or irritated, I would expect them quite frankly to get over themselves and put up with it for 15 minutes or whatever. And I have led by example with this and always chatted on to one little lad with LDs who used to engage me in the primary school playground.

I think we have a duty to society to teach our kids to think about other people. And I do think we can do this without teaching them to endanger themselves or become doormats.

...and some of the most uncomfortable and distressing experiences in my life occurred when parents who thought like the OP tried to force their children (NT or otherwise) to interact with me more like they describe.

That is a very good point as well.

I think part of the issue here is that “special needs” or “disability” and similar terminology can mean so many things.. we have no idea how OP’s kids behave. Many of us are projecting experiences we have had in the last, probably with wildly different types of children we personally have interacted with. Plus, in my case and everyone I know in our town’s case, with very little understanding or information... because there is such secrecy in schools. We are simultaneously supposed to ignore the SN out loud but take it into account in our heads to explain or excuse certain behaviour. That is cognitive dissonance that many people are incapable of, and it causes resentment. There is a big issue at policy level here and as usual the general populace are fighting it out amongst themselves while those who dreamt up and implement/fund it are nowhere to be found.

Thing is we can’t help who we like or don’t like. Disabled or not, if someone likes or does something you don’t then your not going to get more then pleasantries.

NT children have the issue too. My eldest is a loner a floater mainly where he comes into his own is gaming, his not been invited to birthday parties for years and even when he was it was 1 a year. Other kids will humour him till a better option comes along walking to school and drop him.

My middle child social butterfly loves everyone as long as they like the same stuff at that current time.

Youngest does not like anyone coming anywhere near her or even saying hello from a distance unless she likes them and will make her displeasure known verbally by screaming and boy if you touch her you will definitely know her displeasure.

Of course my heart hurts for my eldest but it’s not the other children’s fault that they just don’t have anything in common with him and wouldn’t be fair to expect them to be anything more that polite.

Some children have their own issues that you won’t know about that your child could easily set off such as my youngest. A simple hello from you son would have her running for help screaming and crying because he isn’t her friend and she doesn’t know how to handle that yet other than to run away screaming go away.

It must just be a coincidence then that so many children with sn experience the same thing

But also there’s many that don’t. Little children are innocent and like to play with who they like, it’s as simple as that. They don’t avoid child X because they have SN, they may avoid them because they don’t play how they like to or they are naughty but this is true of any child not just those with SN.

This isn't just about children playing and being open to dc with sen.
Children in general can be nasty and mean.
I do not have any issues socialising and I was bullied for years at school.
Also you can teach a dc but it doesn't mean that every-time they interact they are going to be at their best and it's probably at that time you believe the dc is not well taught and make negative assumptions.

Just like when you let a car out and keep driving, someone else wants to be let out you don't and they think your rude.

I have read every comment on this thread and I cannot find a single thing @herculepoirot2 has said that is ableist and I actually find the vitriol with which people have reacted to her simply saying she wouldn't force her daughter to be friends with someone that made her feel uncomfortable quite scary. To report her for saying she wouldn't force her child to be friends with anyone? Way overzealous.

She is not trying to force her views on anyone, she has been continually forced to defend herself against accusations of ableism, racism, child entitlement and god knows what else for making a simple statement that should really go without saying: that she encourages her child to be patient and understanding of people's differences but a young girl in particularly in the society we live in should NOT be taught to put up with someone consistently overstepping her boundaries despite her asking them not to, regardless of the reason why.

She and the others on this post that have focused on the personal space issue are not assuming all SN are like this by mentioning it, as people keep saying, they are focusing on this area because it was specifically mentioned by the OP (who even said in one reply that her kids would benefit from being taught more about personal space) several times, and others in their reply HAVE said that in scenarios such as this where the SN child in question DOES have issues respecting personal space, other children should be pushed to accept and allow this because the parents of the SN kid knows their child doesn't mean any harm so strangers should just take their word for it. It does not go without saying that a SN child, like any child, does not mean harm, or could not cause harm without meaning to, and if their behaviour comes across as threatening then you do have to respect other people's decision to back away from feeling threatened.

And I'm sorry but given the context of the world we live in it IS equally important for young girls not to be raised to put up with these things for the sake of other people being comfortable, as it is for your child to feel accepted. The world is full of complex issues and blanket acceptance is not the only message children need to learn. The statistics around young girls feeling pressured into pleasing others and putting them first and what that leads to are terrifying. I have been that girl. Hundreds of thousands of people have been that girl. No your child is not a predator. Teaching my child that there are ifs and buts to when she is allowed to say no to unwanted physical contact because it might upset the other person is deeply problematic.

Yes, I get it, the world would benefit from being less opposed to people who are "other". But this post has turned into an absolute witch hunt of @hercule, who widely agreed with that point but simply questioned whether it is fair to put the onus of making up for this cultural trend on one individual child (as their parent) who feels uncomfortable, given the context of the excluded child OP describes being one who does not understand other children's personal boundaries.

@gingerginger2 - do you facilitate friendships at your house, inviting your dc's peers round the play in the environment your dc are familiar with?

My dearest friend got told as an adult she had an asd diagnosis of some years prior, when we were at school together.

I got to know my friend because of shared common interests (complete school nerds) and developed a lasting friendship from that. She was a bit quirky at school but her quirks didn't put me off getting to know the person she is. The information coming just a couple of years ago just became a "oh so that's why you did that".

It's hard but I've found finding common ground and supervision is definitely the best way to encourage friendships, even if they don't last. Let's face it, kids are very fickle anyway and even nt kids are best friends one day and worst enemies the next.

I have 2 sen and 2 nt dc. Both sen dc are currently at mainstream schools because academically, that's where they should be. But socially, they get on far better with their peers from their sen sports group.

Sorry not sure why that came out in bold 🙄

That is true Tinkly. I was as an parent always a public "chatter".

I did it because it was how I was brought up and I wanted to model for my kids too.

However it is learned behaviour from my community in childhood. By nature I was a silent, avoidant child who in school was not socially skilled at all. I could have been that girl who although desperately trying to be polite would not want to walk and chat.

My own kids have not been at the forefront in being inclusive in school. I have been disappointed BUT I also see them being like me, naturally introverted and without any great natural social skills.

Very good point fascinated.

Why do you insist on twisting everything Hercule says? She's shown an enormous amount of empathy and patience actually. Hats off to her. I can't see anything wrong with her argument. It's all very well labelling someone ableist but some of you seem utterly self unaware about your antipathy towards NT children who are just children and not capable of the subtle and sophisticated interactions that many adults would struggle with. You have extremely high expectations of what small children can deliver. Every single person has said yes of course we should be inclusive and teach our children about differences in other people, not let prejudice get in the way of potential friendship but that sometimes it might still not lead to the interaction you're demanding. You've no understanding of small children still learning to deal with their own feelings/needs yet you're expecting them to shoulder quite adult response mechanisms and fully supply/accommodate the feelings and needs of your DC. Attacking Hercule isn't helping your argument at all.

Kay I would say I was an introvert and not a playground chatterer at all. However I would never snub a little kid. And of course, once he realised I was someone who would engage with him, he sought me out.

@MaryBerrysBomberJacket and @MephistophelesApprentice thank you for your thoughtful posts and for sharing your experiences. I for one, appreciate hearing from those who 'were' the children who had to cope with being outside their peer group, socially.

I was actually wondering if non-NT people would feel patronised by this discussion.

I meant by it that I am open to engage with any likely soul I come across in everyday situations like this.

But it is not something I could do as a child.

I hardly spoke at school tbh.