To urge you to teach your children to be genuinely inclusive, not just polite?

[gingerginger2]

My kids are back at school this week (Scotland) and after a summer of seeing them without the context of their peers it’s a sadness again to see them interacting with other children.

On their own, they are sweet, silly, funny, kind, playful, interesting, creative, chatty. They are part of the world, full of wonder and learning and play.

But in the context of kids their age, they are different. They both have learning disabilities and dyspraxia.

They don’t know this though, they don’t quite realise they are “different” yet. They are little, they learn slowly, despite the constant lessons from society’s exclusions. They run up to their “friends” in such a carefree happy way, eager to talk, play, connect. It doesn’t seem to occur to them not to.

And when they do they mainly encounter silence. Uncomfortable polite looks. Or polite confused monosyllabic mumbles followed by eager escapes into actual easy friendships groups. Or at best a short conversation in a humouring tone, a tone learnt by imitating the tones adults take with small silly children.

There’s not really any unkindness. There’s just a refusal to actually engage, to get to know, to connect. An embarrassment and unwillingness to spend time with my children’s lack of social skills, messy clothes, an uncomfortableness at their invasion of their personal space. So a brief hello before getting on with actual friendships and relationships and life. An obvious desire to politely not engage. A smile with the lips not the eyes.

I’m amazed they don’t seem to realise that they’ve been snubbed again. But they din’t Mainly. Learning disability means everything is hard to learn I guess. But it’ heartbreaking to see they just carry on and continue to fling themselves at people, wide open, encountering boundaries wherever they go. I worry that soon they’ll start to realise and feel the pain of these rejections.

I worry too that maybe they do feel the pain. Maybe it goes somewhere deep, and maybe they are learning day by day that people don’t like them. That society isn’t for them.

I hate it.

Please can you teach your children to be more than polite and kind to their peers with disabilities? Please can you urge them to actually get to know them, to actually connect and include them? Even when they are messy, annoying, noisy and a bit weird. Even then?

How can you force your children to be friends with anyone?

No she hasn’t. Her stance has been that she wouldn’t force her child to be friends with anyone.

I wouldn’t. She wouldn’t have to be friends, as she would have the option of withdrawal. The option she doesn’t have is excluding the other child.

But that isn’t good enough for the OP.

I think what you're asking for does happen in schools OP, but it takes a huge amount of adult support to make some of these interactions that you want a positive experience for both the NT children and the children with LDs. How can parents be expected to make that happen when they aren't there in the playground anyway, and when their children actually need to be allowed to play with their peers without adult management.

It is incredibly difficult to teach children that they should overlook behaviours in others that they themselves are taught not to do. They can understand to a certain extent that some children find things more difficult than others, but you're asking for a level of understanding that the majority of 5/6/7 years olds just aren't yet capable of.

Morning folks - thanks for the reports.

We’re just dropping in with a strong reminder that we don’t tolerate disablism in any form on Mumsnet, as such posts don't fit with our basic philosophy of support and advice for all parents and break our Talk Guidelines. We also ask that you consider the challenges many parents of children with disabilities, or who have disabilities themselves, face on a daily basis, and bear this in mind when posting. Please remember there are real people behind these posts and do consider the hurt a thoughtless comment may cause.

Can we try and get this thread back on track now please? Thanks.

Having three NT children I would say that generally at primary school age they are relatively inclusive as a whole although haven’t necessarily formed close friendships with children with SN. I think the exclusion gets worse as they get older and form very tight knit friendship groups which are far less fluid than those they had when they were younger and generally involve similar interests and activities.

You can’t @EweSurname. I remain mystified as to why people are continually interpreting my OP.

And yes @WishingILivedOnAnIsland, I totally acknowledge it’s nuanced and difficult. Not everything necessary is easy. It does require effort.

Thank you @IdRatherBeCrafting . Appreciate the understanding.

And yes

Thanks MNHQ, really appreciate the support.

I hope this thread is helping some to think again rather than just making me and other parents of disabled kids despair :-(

Sorry gingerginger, it wasn’t aimed at you!

It was a pp who was expressing disbelief/sorrow/annoyance (?) that another poster wouldn’t force her child to be friends with someone.

Your post was heartbreaking and thought provoking, and I had a chat with both my dc this morning to check in with their class dynamics and whether anyone was left out so thank you for posting

One day this could be you having to deal with your child being ostracised and told they’re a “weirdo” because they don’t find the world an easy place to deal with as others (for whatever reasons). Special needs and disability can happen to anyone or anyone’s child. I didn’t think it would happen to me or my family. It did. It could happen to you. At any time

Many "smug, ablist" parents do have this. Not because their kids have SN but because they simply don't fit in. They have all their limbs and they can pass GCSEs well, but that doesn't mean that other kids think that they are "normal".

In fact others have concluded from many of your posts that you are in fact prejudiced, unpleasant, judgemental and comparing children with predators and the list goes on.

I haven't agreed with everything Hercule has said but I honestly don't agree with this and think it's becoming a bit of a pile on. I actually think she's been quite calm in repeatedly explaining herself and her opinion. Isn't that the whole point of MN? Pretty sure she didn't compare SN kids to predators but happy to be corrected.

Hercule, no it's not rude. I'm asking you to put yourself in someone else's shoes and imagine what they may feel. It's called empathy.

Your daughter is shunned by everyone in her class. You see it. How would you feel? What would you say to your daughter?

Well done for bringing this up. I recognise much of what you say althoughwe don’t have a diagnosis yet.
I remember being very grumpy as a child about children who tried to ‘cling’ to me and I wanted to escape. My parents had their flaws but I do remember a lot of conversations about the impact and my power for good in including people. I didn’t like it at the time. I wanted to be cool. But I am glad there pushed me to not be embarrassed to have a friend that acts younger, or dribbles sometimes. They encouraged me to be a leader and not a follower. There are really valuable life lesson in standing up for what is right even when it’s (a little) costly.

I don't get the removing yourself from uncomfortable situations crap.

We often put our children in uncomfortable situations for their own good. For example, I took my children recently to a holiday sports course...they both arrived feeling very uncomfortable. They didn't know anyone, they weren't sure of the set up...given the choice, they'd have both probably left straight away but I insisted they give it a chance and they loved it. Equally, the first day at school is often full of discomfort.

Anyway, I don't believe that a lot of nt children feel uncomfortable with children with sn...I reckon it's more a combination of can't be bothered and not wanting to be seen with a person not perceived as cool or popular.

so, you think that refusing to interact with a child with SN equals teaching them to protect themselves from predators?

The use of the word predators is extreme on a thread like this, but I think some posters are ignoring the reality of what they're asking for.

How do you teach a child that it's wrong to pinch another child, and that if they get pinched they shouldn't accept it, at the same time as teaching them that they should include the child who pinches because they genuinely can't control their impulses?

How do you teach a child that they shouldn't get frustrated and they should make the effort to play with the child that has just disrupted their lesson by shouting out or not doing as they were told because that child can't help it, at the same time as teaching them that it's not acceptable if they do those things?

They don’t have to accept being hurt. The OP was talking about her child being a bit socially unaware, not that they were biting/pinching children. If your child is hurt by another child though, you can help them to see that pinching isn’t okay. They can find an adult. That some children may not have learnt this yet and they can help them by telling them no very clearly. Children as young as 5 can think about forgiveness and diminished responsibility- ask any child with a younger sibling!

I don't get the removing yourself from uncomfortable situations crap.

An example I have dealt with in school. A lovely, kind, intelligent child has a disability and as a symptom of that requires a lot of sensory input. This child often shouts very loudly, behaves in a very demanding manner sometimes, and is then easily upset if they don't get their own way. They often want to hold hands or link arms and so will keep trying to do that even after they've been brushed off or told not to.

Am I really expected to tell a 6yo that they just have to put up with that? Because I don't think any child should be told they have to remain in a situation where someone is shouting at them and constantly grabbing their hands. That child deserves to know (and potentially needs to know for their own safety) that it is ok to say no to doing something that they don't want to do. Of course that doesn't extend to going to school when they don't feel like it or whatever, but they are children and it takes time and input for them to understand what they should be allowed to say no to. And they should be allowed to say no to playing in a certain way during their own free play time.

Considering how long this thread is what’s depressing is how small the number of posters that have have reflected on what the OP has tried to get across and have said that they will try and educate their dc to be more inclusive and understanding.

But these threads always end up like this so I shouldn’t be surprised.

I've resisted from posting on this because this is close to home for me, not my children. I'm also a teacher, so I see this from many directions.

I have Aspergers. I was the kid no one wanted to be friends with because I didn't understand social interaction, could be loud, could be withdrawn, was obsessed with random things. I was awkward and peoe didn't know how to interact with me.

(Flame proof clothing on)

OP I wish I went to a school with people like me. People I had something in common with. Wotg similar abilities and disabilities. I am intelligent and love science. Very few kids understood me. I preferred being with teachers who I could have a conversation with because I had nothing in common with the other students.

I'm actually struggling with what you are asking for. You want more than polite and tolerant but not forced friendship? I'm not sure what that is. People were and are polite and tolerant of me, just as I am with them, and that is fine. I would have been destroyed if I thought people where forced to spend time with me. No-one can force me to be friends with someone, but I can be friendly, which is what I see as polite and tolerant. And I can be that to everyone, as can most of the kids I teach. I don't understand what is between them though.

I have friends now and they are like me; scientists mainly who are either diagnosed, are probably somewhere close or are as equally obsessed with science like me. I don't fit into society now, but equally society doesn't fit me. I found my tribe and I flourished; because I chose my friends.

Yes, society should change to be welcoming of difference, but never in a million years will we have friendships that are fully, fully inclusive in the way I think you want. I have friends with physical disabilities, with mental health issues, friends who have developmental disorders such as me, and I have friends with learning disabilities such as dyslexia, but, and I am sorry to say, I don't know where I would have common ground and therefore friendship with someone with other types of learning disabilities. And the same applies to children. We can be inclusive, be friendly and supportive, but actual friendships? Friendships are a 2 way street, even with kids. I'm not sure how, what I think you want, can be done.

No sauce -I think that’s because we can’t agree where to draw the line. No one has said that kindness and understanding is not the right way to behave, inclusivity - when everyone is included is also right. But that’s where my boundary and that if others is drawn. You want more but I’m not really sure what it is you want - the example OP gave of sharing thought and ideas etc - we are talking about primary school kids who just want to play - it’s not feasible. The next stage that I can see is forcing friendship and I won’t do that

But my dd isn't loud, she doesn't get in anyone's personal space, she doesn't shout or lash out...yet, she's still excluded. Explain that then?!

Exactly formerbabe - the assumption that all ND kids are aggressive, loud, invading personal space and are excluded on this basis is a massive deflection.

I have come back to this thread to see if it had moved on and sadly not. HerculePoirot has been treated appallingly for making sound points that are about promoting inclusion but not to the detriment of her child.

I am happy for my DC to play and interact any child as long as it doesn't impact negatively on their health and wellbeing. So yes, I'm afraid if DC were being hit or shouted at every day at school by another child to the extent they were not wanting to go to school I would be advising that they maybe didn't engage to much with this child, regardless of age, disability, home circumstances, or whatever.

I'm afraid some posters on here don't seem to understand these dilemmas and come across as though their children's needs are more important than everyone else's.

I too agree with Hercule.
OP have you considered that the other children are not forming connections with yours not because of SN but because there is simply nothing to connect over eg no shared interests or favourite club to discuss etc, in which case there is no foundation to build a relationship upon so polite acknowledgement is all there can be until they do find their tribe? As a child I was allowed to chose my own friends and will allow my daughter to do the same. As a child and adult I hated pointless small talk with people I have nothing in common with and would not force my DD into this position especially in her own home on a play date or party.

I can see where the 'people pleasing' socialisation that puts women at such a disadvantage is coming from.

I'm on the autistic spectrum (HFA). Growing up was a hard, nasty, lonely experience. I got a lot of social cues wrong and made children my age uncomfortable. They were under NO obligation to deal with this. It IS and ALWAYS WAS my responsibility to develop an appropriate respect for others boundaries. Adults helped, and polite responses from other children helped. Politeness and courtesy is the absolute maximum that can be demanded from anyone, and some of the most uncomfortable and distressing experiences in my life occurred when parents who thought like the OP tried to force their children (NT or otherwise) to interact with me more like they describe. Children are not trained in special needs support and should not be forced into the role.