To urge you to teach your children to be genuinely inclusive, not just polite?

[gingerginger2]

My kids are back at school this week (Scotland) and after a summer of seeing them without the context of their peers it’s a sadness again to see them interacting with other children.

On their own, they are sweet, silly, funny, kind, playful, interesting, creative, chatty. They are part of the world, full of wonder and learning and play.

But in the context of kids their age, they are different. They both have learning disabilities and dyspraxia.

They don’t know this though, they don’t quite realise they are “different” yet. They are little, they learn slowly, despite the constant lessons from society’s exclusions. They run up to their “friends” in such a carefree happy way, eager to talk, play, connect. It doesn’t seem to occur to them not to.

And when they do they mainly encounter silence. Uncomfortable polite looks. Or polite confused monosyllabic mumbles followed by eager escapes into actual easy friendships groups. Or at best a short conversation in a humouring tone, a tone learnt by imitating the tones adults take with small silly children.

There’s not really any unkindness. There’s just a refusal to actually engage, to get to know, to connect. An embarrassment and unwillingness to spend time with my children’s lack of social skills, messy clothes, an uncomfortableness at their invasion of their personal space. So a brief hello before getting on with actual friendships and relationships and life. An obvious desire to politely not engage. A smile with the lips not the eyes.

I’m amazed they don’t seem to realise that they’ve been snubbed again. But they din’t Mainly. Learning disability means everything is hard to learn I guess. But it’ heartbreaking to see they just carry on and continue to fling themselves at people, wide open, encountering boundaries wherever they go. I worry that soon they’ll start to realise and feel the pain of these rejections.

I worry too that maybe they do feel the pain. Maybe it goes somewhere deep, and maybe they are learning day by day that people don’t like them. That society isn’t for them.

I hate it.

Please can you teach your children to be more than polite and kind to their peers with disabilities? Please can you urge them to actually get to know them, to actually connect and include them? Even when they are messy, annoying, noisy and a bit weird. Even then?

i wish the posters like herculepoirot2 could realise that this could be their child.

I do too. I've worked with many SN children over the years. To be fair to Hercule, I don't think she has actually mentioned needing boundaries at any point (happy to be corrected), and has stated several times that she does/will teach her child empathy, as I'm sure we all will strive to. However, that's exactly what the OP and other posters seem to be saying isn't what they are looking for, that empathy and politeness isn't enough. And where the line is drawn between encouraging/facilitating interactions and relationships, and forcing them, is where the argument lies.

It's such an emotive and complex subject and obviously anyone with an SN child will face challenges I and many others will never know. That doesn't mean we have to agree with everything that is requested or suggested.

Hercule, hypothetical scenario. Your daughter is in school, but is so entitled and annoying no one likes her and no one wants to be her friend. You see her being shunned in the morning at school drop off.
What do you do?

Feeling uncomfortable should be challenged in certain circumstances, if i had a parent who insisted i could just remove myself everytime i felt uncomfortable, i would not experience having a friendship with my friend who doesnt givr eye contact or my other friend who doesnt understand polite niceties as autistic and can come across rude at times.

I don’t think children with sn are predators. I do want my children to protect themselves from predators by feeling allowed to remove themselves from situations they feel uncomfortable in. I think there’s a difference. so, you think that refusing to interact with a child with SN equals teaching them to protect themselves from predators? Fuck me we really have stooped to new lows on this thread....

I don’t think children with sn are predators. I do want my children to protect themselves from predators by feeling allowed to remove themselves from situations they feel uncomfortable in.

But surely by allowing your child to remove themselves from a situation where they are exposed to someone with a visible disability, or an amputation or whatever, you are sending the message that people with SN are predators because you are validating that discomfort IYSWIM?

In some situations don't you have to send the message to your child that their discomfort is not valid? I don't know...

Obviously this is different to forcing a friendship with a child whose SN means that your child will consistently get hurt, either physically or emotionally.

There's a subtext here that children without disabilities are in some way superior to those with and are doing them a favour just by tolerating them.

Yep.

Hercule, hypothetical scenario. Your daughter is in school, but is so entitled and annoying no one likes her and no one wants to be her friend. You see her being shunned in the morning at school drop off.

What a weird example. A parent can work with their child to address levels of entitlement, etc.

What’s the parent of a disabled child supposed to do?

Yes, surely as parents we have to take our kids out of their comfort zone. Thats how they learn stuff.

What if the child with an amputated arm wanted to be friends with your DD Hercule, wanted to be included in her friendship group, but DD didn’t like the fact this child’s arm was amputated and wouldn’t let her play with them.

Would you still think that this was your DDs right to exclude her?

We are talking about 7 year olds here. I think what you are asking OP is just too much. At my children’s school they will do what you suggest as a matter of course in lessons but at lunchtime the kids want to play - they are kids

Your daughter is in school, but is so entitled and annoying no one likes her and no one wants to be her friend. You see her being shunned in the morning at school drop off.
What do you do?

Erm. I am assuming this is you being rude rather than a serious question.

What if the child with an amputated arm wanted to be friends with your DD Hercule, wanted to be included in her friendship group, but DD didn’t like the fact this child’s arm was amputated and wouldn’t let her play with them.

She has no right to exclude a child from any group and I would tell her so clearly. If she did not want to interact with a child who was joining in, she would have to withdraw rather than excluding the other child.

Yep.

Nope. The scenario is specifically one in which my DD felt uncomfortable. Which is a hypothetical. There is no reason to believe she will actually be uncomfortable.

That’s something of an improvement to your stance so far.

What if the school were showing a video about the paralympics and all the achievements that people with disabilities have made. Would you be OK with your DD running out of the hall because she is uncomfortable with seeing people amputations? Would you be OK with everyone else seeing her do that? Would you be happy that she has missed that experience of seeing people with disabilities actually achieving great things? Would you complain to the school if they didn't let her leave?

Sorry, I know you are having a lot of 'what ifs' thrown at you now, but I'm interested in how far this 'discomfort and boundaries' thing goes.

• Have you read all of her posts? She has said throughout the thread that if her DD didn’t want to be friends with someone for whatever reason then she wouldn’t force them.*

I fully agree with @herculepoirot2 I wouldn't force my child into a friendship they didn't want.

What if the school were showing a video about the paralympics and all the achievements that people with disabilities have made. Would you be OK with your DD running out of the hall because she is uncomfortable with seeing people amputations?

No. I send my DD to school to be educated. Unless she had a severe anxiety attack I would expect her to sit her arse in the chair. That has nothing to do with a situation in which other children are being claimed to be “entitled” to interactions with her. They are not.

That’s something of an improvement to your stance so far.

It is exactly the same as it was before.

Reading some of these responses breaks my heart. I've taught children and YP with a range of disabilities for almost 20 years and, sadly, we are not progressing. The pp who denies that society further disables people with SN couldn't be more wrong. The idea that we mearly have to tolerate people just amplifies the isolation and feelings of inadequacy that many kids and their families already feel. Children with SN are not just an inconvenience to be worked around or a novelty to receive some token attention- they are just like your kids.

It's not about forcing friendships, it's about moving beyond the belief that people with disabilites are less than, somehow scary, don't understand/ feel the same as everyone else.

alternativeperspective if dc were uncomfortable with anyone, I’d want to know why and would talk to them about it, especially if it was rooted in perceived “otherness”. I’m not saying I wouldn’t teach them empathy and understanding differences or that I’d tolerate unkindness. I think it’s possible to do that as well as reinforce my child’s confidence in removing themselves from situations they find uncomfortable.

My eldest is a real people pleaser and is often dominated by children half his age when they play out on the street together. I’m working hard to teach him that he doesn’t have to go along with what everyone wants if he doesn’t want to but that doesn’t mean I’d allow him to be mean. I just also wouldn’t force him to go beyond being kind and open if he didn’t want to, because I think it’s important that he knows he can choose his boundaries.

The two things aren't mutually exclusive.

You can teach your children:

1. disability isn't to be feared and people living with disability are a valued part of our community.

AND

2. you are entitled to remove yourself from situations that you are uncomfortable with.

They are two separate lessons. If you've raised your children to understand and accept disability then they won't be uncomfortable when they come across it in the real world.

It's not one or the other. It isn't ableist to teach your child to leave a situation that makes them uncomfortable for whatever reason. Disability is a complex issue, are we meant to be training our 8 year olds to assess it?

Yes there is nuance involved, as OP said. But the 'nuance' involved is something adults grapple with (as evidenced by this thread) let alone a small child who is only just learning about socialising themselves who has to decide in the moment how to react.

If she has any doubt, I would want my DD to remove herself. She is not obligated to provide emotional labour for every one who crosses her path.

Err, her stance has not changed. She has literally been saying the exact same thing this entire thread

No she hasn’t. Her stance has been that she wouldn’t force her child to be friends with anyone.

Despite all this, I realise I do actually constantly teach my kids about NT kids boundaries. Always trying to explain to them how to fit in more, how to alter themselves and their behaviour in order not to challenge their peers boundaries.

But fucking hell, I’ve just realised that it’s never going to be good enough is it? Even if they do manage to make the gargantuan effort to learn how to fit into a neurotypical world, it’ll never be fucking good enough will it? Because someone will have taught their 3 year old already that it’s ok for them not to make an effort back if they don’t want to.

My eldest is a real people pleaser and is often dominated by children half his age when they play out on the street together. I’m working hard to teach him that he doesn’t have to go along with what everyone wants if he doesn’t want to but that doesn’t mean I’d allow him to be mean. I just also wouldn’t force him to go beyond being kind and open if he didn’t want to, because I think it’s important that he knows he can choose his boundaries

This is the exact problem I have with my dd. I have no idea how many foot balls to the face she has to take before she decides enough is enough

She doesnt want to hurt anyones feelings and its usually to her own detriment.