To urge you to teach your children to be genuinely inclusive, not just polite?

[gingerginger2]

My kids are back at school this week (Scotland) and after a summer of seeing them without the context of their peers it’s a sadness again to see them interacting with other children.

On their own, they are sweet, silly, funny, kind, playful, interesting, creative, chatty. They are part of the world, full of wonder and learning and play.

But in the context of kids their age, they are different. They both have learning disabilities and dyspraxia.

They don’t know this though, they don’t quite realise they are “different” yet. They are little, they learn slowly, despite the constant lessons from society’s exclusions. They run up to their “friends” in such a carefree happy way, eager to talk, play, connect. It doesn’t seem to occur to them not to.

And when they do they mainly encounter silence. Uncomfortable polite looks. Or polite confused monosyllabic mumbles followed by eager escapes into actual easy friendships groups. Or at best a short conversation in a humouring tone, a tone learnt by imitating the tones adults take with small silly children.

There’s not really any unkindness. There’s just a refusal to actually engage, to get to know, to connect. An embarrassment and unwillingness to spend time with my children’s lack of social skills, messy clothes, an uncomfortableness at their invasion of their personal space. So a brief hello before getting on with actual friendships and relationships and life. An obvious desire to politely not engage. A smile with the lips not the eyes.

I’m amazed they don’t seem to realise that they’ve been snubbed again. But they din’t Mainly. Learning disability means everything is hard to learn I guess. But it’ heartbreaking to see they just carry on and continue to fling themselves at people, wide open, encountering boundaries wherever they go. I worry that soon they’ll start to realise and feel the pain of these rejections.

I worry too that maybe they do feel the pain. Maybe it goes somewhere deep, and maybe they are learning day by day that people don’t like them. That society isn’t for them.

I hate it.

Please can you teach your children to be more than polite and kind to their peers with disabilities? Please can you urge them to actually get to know them, to actually connect and include them? Even when they are messy, annoying, noisy and a bit weird. Even then?

I remember watching CBeebies with my youngest.

He said "why's she only got one arm?"
me "I don't know, I expect she was born with only one arm"
Dc4 "Oh Ok" (goes back to watching)

If he'd started wailing and demanding the TV was turned off I would have had serious concerns about him...

But the alternative is teaching small children that it is not okay to withdraw from situations that make them feel unsafe or uncomfortable. no, it isn’t. The alternative is teaching children that everyone is different, and that while it’s ok to not engage with certain behaviours we should sometimes accept that there is more to that child than just those individuals.

I’m sure your children have quirks which make them undesirable friends to others. Would you be ok with them being excluded from society as a result?

Over 50% of the disabled adult population are unemployed. Do you really think that that is because they’re just not employable? Or maybe, just maybe it’s because the adults who were your children once find it uncomfortable to be around them?

As for the poster who compared the CBeebies presenter to Amanda Holden, there is no comparison at all. I don’t watch Jeremy Kyle because he’s a self righteous annoying twat. I don’t watch reality tv because it is vacuous drivel which brings out the worst in our society.

But there is a vast vast difference between that and not watching because someone with only one arm makes you feel uncomfortable. Why exactly would that be? I mean I can pinpoint why I dislike Jeremy Kyle or love island. How on earth can you justify finding someone with one arm a negative influence?

Hercule, Ffs! You persist in misconstruing and misrepresenting my OP. I have never ever said that their should be forced friendship.

I’m not going to restate everything again to counter you. My posts are easy enough to find.

I remain as disappointed in people as I was when I started this thread.

And yes, I do seek out opportunity for my kids to “find their tribe”. I just remain sad that I have to

If he'd started wailing and demanding the TV was turned off I would have had serious concerns about him...

So would I. I actually just googled this and the presenter said there were a grand total of nine complaints.

Still nine too many though. I remember thinking at the time it sounded like made-up shite by bored, narrow minded parents rather than any genuine alarm emanating from the children themselves.

There is no getting through to some people, I have no idea why they’re still on this thread but to point out time and time again that their DC doesn’t have to include someone with a disability if it makes her feel uncomfortable. If that’s not I don’t know what is.

You cannot force children to be friends though. It doesn't matter what you say/model, they will click with certain people and not with others.

I agree with this. I have 4 DC and engineering friendships doesn’t work. They will choose their own friends. IMO it seems to be the children with whom they share interests or those who have qualities they admire, in primary that seems to be the children who are sporty or funny, or both.

As parents we can teach them about differences and help them not to be feel frightened or unsure about how children with developmental or neurocognitive differences may act. We can encourage empathy and how it’s kind to include all children in class projects and in the playground. Maybe over time friendships will blossom but while inclusion and kindness should be mandatory, you can’t force your children to like someone.

I think this is quite a tough subject (and an emotive one at that).

As a child I grew up with a disabled uncle, wheelchair bound with cerebral palsy. Naturally my mum and dad raised me to be entirely inclusive and taught me to always look beneath the surface.

I was quite a shy child and didn't form friendships easily but always went out of my way to try and include those that were excluded (for any reason not just disability). Many of the children I "befriended" weren't actually interested in me, we didn't have things in common and when they then went on to develop real friendships they turned to picking on me and making me feel excluded using the things I'd told them about my interests. School was a tough time for me as a result and I ended up moving schools and starting fresh when I was 17, I made lasting friendships once I realised I had to find people who actually liked me for me.

There was a boy with autism in my art class and he was very quiet, I didn't really get to talk to him due to the layout of the class but he was a fantastic artist. He was often picked on by other children because he was quiet.

I'm 29 now and Facebook friends with the boy from art class, after school he found a really tight knit group of friends who share his interests in art and comics and he seems to be doing really well for himself.

I don't think you can force friendships as they won't last, but you should always expect politeness from other people. Being cruel to someone for being different (for whatever reason) is not okay.

I know it's sad and I know as someone who didn't have proper friends until I was 17 that it hurts, but I would say the best thing you can do for your children is encourage their interests... outside of the classroom if you have to, because finding children with similar interests is what will help build lasting bonds.

Where did I say I wouldn’t challenge it? The point is that I am not going to force her to watch it if she doesn’t want to.

The original point was that parents complained to Cbeebies that Cerrie should be taken off air because it was making their kids feel uncomfortable.

If your child is that repulsed by someone who only has half a right arm (and were kids really that affected by it, really, my kids genuinely didn't give a shit?) then yes, I would say that could be challenged. And I would say that part of that 'challenging' would be talking about the fact that some people are different, but also showing your child pictures and videos of people with various amputations/disabilities. Not A Clockwork Orange style, obviously, but ensuring that you do do that, and they they do see people who are different to them.

To be honest it's moot really, as IME as a mum and a primary teacher, kids don't tend to care about people looking physically different in that way and are not 'scared' by people who have missing limbs, are in wheelchairs, or have obvious disabilities such as down syndrome.

The wider point of the thread ie. 'forcing' children to make friendships and interactions with others they may not want to, is a tricker one.

I have never ever said that their should be forced friendship.

You have said my child should be forced to walk with and interact with yours, that it is not enough for her to be kind, that her smile can’t be just on her lips, that she owes your child social interaction.

With all respect to your children, because none of this is their fault, neither you nor they are entitled to interaction with my child. You are not respectful of that.

Propertyofhood

Well, we all parent differently, but to be honest the idea of forcing my child to watch videos of people with amputations when she has specifically expressed her lack of comfort sounds hideous. There are other ways to “challenge” and I haven’t said I am unwilling, I’d ever my DD does express herself along these lines.

I agree with this. I have 4 DC and engineering friendships doesn’t work. They will choose their own friends.

This happens a lot anyway. I, and I'm sure many others have, have had situations where I have been really good friends with a child's parent and we have been quite keen for our kids to become really close friends as well, but it just hasn't worked out that way. They don't hate each other or anything, but they just don't click the way their mums did and aren't the BFFs we hoped they would be

And that is fine.

This happens a lot anyway. I, and I'm sure many others have, have had situations where I have been really good friends with a child's parent and we have been quite keen for our kids to become really close friends as well, but it just hasn't worked out that way. They don't hate each other or anything, but they just don't click the way their mums did and aren't the BFFs we hoped they would be wink

Yes! And as adults you can’t work out WHY but if the spark isn’t there, it just isn’t.

Hercule, I’m only on page seventeen (I’m thoroughly ‘enjoying’ this thread and absorbing each page; it’s a complex topic and one I hadn’t thought too much about previously so thanks to OP) and wanted to say that so far I’m largely in agreement with you, and think many other readers who perhaps haven’t felt able to comment may be too. You’ve remained calm and consistent and explained your points despite being... attacked isn’t the word, neither is ganged up on, but certainly vigorously challenged for a long while.

Following with interest

Someone asked if the other kids knew about the disabilities. In our school they wouldn’t. Not a word is said to the NT children and it is taboo to even suggest that someone might have disabilities etc. I find this very difficult to deal with, as I would like to know more about how to successfully interact and understand what is going on. As it is all I can say to my child is “ their brain works differently, we must accept that everyone is different”. But it’s really hard for young children if the LDs manifest themselves as hitting or kicking, or constant singing in class, or having the TA take the word of the ND child over the NT child’s without even asking what has happened. After a while my advice has had to veer in the direction of “ just try to ignore it all”...there is really nothing else to be done as the school won’t enter into any discussion about any of it. What, genuinely, should we do?

Well, we all parent differently, but to be honest the idea of forcing my child to watch videos of people with amputations when she has specifically expressed her lack of comfort sounds hideous. There are other ways to “challenge” and I haven’t said I am unwilling, I’d ever my DD does express herself along these lines.

What if your child had a child in their class who had an amputated arm and your child had to 'look at it' all the time? And it made them really uncomfortable? Would you move schools? Would you request that the child move? Because you didn't want to 'force' your child to have to look at something that made her uncomfortable. Or would she just have to deal with it?

As I said, I'm not saying tie your kid down and force them to look at stuff. But just normalise it when it comes on the telly rather than just immediately turn it off because its making her uncomfortable. How else would you challenge it?

As I said though, moot point because I don't believe that loads of kids really were 'traumatised' by the lack of a right forearm on Cebeebies.

What if your child had a child in their class who had an amputated arm and your child had to 'look at it' all the time? And it made them really uncomfortable? Would you move schools? Would you request that the child move? Because you didn't want to 'force' your child to have to look at something that made her uncomfortable. Or would she just have to deal with it?

That would be tough. She doesn’t get to decide where other people go, and school isn’t optional. She would just have to get used to it.

That isn’t the same as forcing her into interactions with people when she does not want to interact because the other person is “entitled” to interaction .

I too am with Hercules on this. Unless I have read the OP wrong this was not about being polite this was about forcing our children to be friends with children they wouldn’t choose to be friends with. The two things are entirely different. I would not accept my child not treating any other child with respect and kindness, I would not accept a class invite going out with one child being excluded but I am not going to force them to make friends with a child they don’t wish to. If they are playing together as a class all kids should be included but children are allowed to make small groups of friends with the people they choose.

And I wouldn’t turn it off and didn’t say I would. I said I wouldn’t force her to watch it and if she wanted to turn it off she would be allowed to.

i wish the posters like herculepoirot2 could realise that this could be their child.
not all disabilities are from birth. lots are caused by accident or illness.
so (hopefully not) this could be your child.
all this talk about boundaries as if children with sn are some kind of predators that nt kids must be kept safe from. its very sad. nothing will change until parents teach their children empathy.

i wish the posters like herculepoirot2 could realise that this could be their child.

I do.

I don’t think children with sn are predators. I do want my children to protect themselves from predators by feeling allowed to remove themselves from situations they feel uncomfortable in. I think there’s a difference.

AGAIN

I don’t think chikdren should be forced to be friends. That is not even possible. Friendship is further down the line than what I am talking about. I think that they should be encouraged and expected to be more than polite and tolerant.

I think they should make an effort to be inclusive in their seeking of friendship and connection, and be educated to know that getting to know SN peers can require different skills and more effort than getting to know.

None of that means forcing them to be friends with someone they don’t click with.

This effort and understanding may not result in a friendship ( as many have rightly said, this requires a spark, a connection). but the experience of being inclusive socially rather than just polite will almost certainly result In a broadening of their experience and a growth in empathy, which can only be good for them. And also good for the SN child, who might not have a strong friendship, but has had the chance to practise a social connection and experience being included. And good for society too, that people are educated to know that doing good for others and doing good for society is important.

As Zaziethecat excellently put it, a few pages ago

^I think what you are looking for OP is that parents encourage something like “being a good neighbour” in their children. It’s more than being polite and kind but isn’t quite as much as friendship (although it can develop into friendship in time if it goes that way and people want it to- it actually makes future friendship more likely and possible).

It’s about being helpful, respectful, understanding, taking the time to get to know someone a bit, keeping an eye out for them, having their back when needs be, sharing knowledge, skills and life events. As I write that, it’s a bit like being a good colleague too, building a sense of community, having a bit of common purpose ( even if the common purpose is just getting through school reasonably intact having learned a bit on the way).

Sadly, as society becoming faster paced and more transient, the skills of being a good neighbour or a good colleague, are diminishing throughout society.

That said, we’d all benefit if good neighbourliness became a bit more prevalent.^

That would be tough. She doesn’t get to decide where other people go, and school isn’t optional. She would just have to get used to it

There's a subtext here that children without disabilities are in some way superior to those with and are doing them a favour just by tolerating them.

There's a subtext here that children without disabilities are in some way superior to those with and are doing them a favour just by tolerating them.

There isn’t. The premise is IF my DD was uncomfortable. I doubt she will be.