To urge you to teach your children to be genuinely inclusive, not just polite?

[gingerginger2]

My kids are back at school this week (Scotland) and after a summer of seeing them without the context of their peers it’s a sadness again to see them interacting with other children.

On their own, they are sweet, silly, funny, kind, playful, interesting, creative, chatty. They are part of the world, full of wonder and learning and play.

But in the context of kids their age, they are different. They both have learning disabilities and dyspraxia.

They don’t know this though, they don’t quite realise they are “different” yet. They are little, they learn slowly, despite the constant lessons from society’s exclusions. They run up to their “friends” in such a carefree happy way, eager to talk, play, connect. It doesn’t seem to occur to them not to.

And when they do they mainly encounter silence. Uncomfortable polite looks. Or polite confused monosyllabic mumbles followed by eager escapes into actual easy friendships groups. Or at best a short conversation in a humouring tone, a tone learnt by imitating the tones adults take with small silly children.

There’s not really any unkindness. There’s just a refusal to actually engage, to get to know, to connect. An embarrassment and unwillingness to spend time with my children’s lack of social skills, messy clothes, an uncomfortableness at their invasion of their personal space. So a brief hello before getting on with actual friendships and relationships and life. An obvious desire to politely not engage. A smile with the lips not the eyes.

I’m amazed they don’t seem to realise that they’ve been snubbed again. But they din’t Mainly. Learning disability means everything is hard to learn I guess. But it’ heartbreaking to see they just carry on and continue to fling themselves at people, wide open, encountering boundaries wherever they go. I worry that soon they’ll start to realise and feel the pain of these rejections.

I worry too that maybe they do feel the pain. Maybe it goes somewhere deep, and maybe they are learning day by day that people don’t like them. That society isn’t for them.

I hate it.

Please can you teach your children to be more than polite and kind to their peers with disabilities? Please can you urge them to actually get to know them, to actually connect and include them? Even when they are messy, annoying, noisy and a bit weird. Even then?

Oh don't be ridiculous. The point was not about watching TV itself but turning it off because a presenter looked different.

Turning it off for that reason alone should be challenged. It is not OK to be offended or uncomfortable about people looking different. It's obscene and entitled.

Turning it off for that reason alone should be challenged. It is not OK to be offended or uncomfortable about people looking different. It's obscene and entitled.

Where did I say I wouldn’t challenge it? The point is that I am not going to force her to watch it if she doesn’t want to.

It is a huge minefield and no simple answer. I guess kindness has to be key lesson we want to teach our children and sometimes ourselves.

It is not possible to ensure every child attends certain types of parties - an immobile child could not take part in a hockey party and might freeze sat on the sidelines by themselves. Should the birthday child change the type of party to allow inclusion?

How would a child with double incontinence and frequent fits be managed on a sleepover?

I recall two children with Trisomy 21 at my children’s very inclusive primary. One was accepted, hugged, laughed with, joined in, loved and very happy. She bought huge joy to the class. The other was less able to integrate; her LD was too significant. She was non verbal, violent, a regular bulldozer. Not her fault but not someone who it was good to be around. Other than imbuing a requirement for servitude and staff rolling out platitudes about loving all Gods creation, she added very little. She disrupted education and play. Constant adult supervision changed dynamics and restricted children’s social learning but didn’t prevent the hair pulling and biting. She was excluded for good reason that were related to her disability but which was not discrimination. She was eventually moved to a special school and everyone was happier.

In truth, I’m comfortable with difference generally but would I happily sit squashed next to a very drunk, smelly, incontinent and verbally abusive man on a train? No. I’d move. I understand they are likely to be mentally ill and addicted to alcohol but no, I don’t want to ‘play’ with them.

Please can you teach your children to be more than polite and kind to their peers with disabilities? Please can you urge them to actually get to know them, to actually connect and include them? Even when they are messy, annoying, noisy and a bit weird. Even then?

Why put this on children?

Why jot ask ADULTS to behave in a more inclusive manner?

99% of adults on here would refuse to engage or feel uncomfortable with an adult who was like that and everyone thinks that’s fine it seems.

Love how you cherry picked and it's OK to ignore the rest of my comment.

These children will grow up and will not be accepted into the work place because of people like you hercule. Give yourself a huge pat on the back.

Love how you cherry picked and it's OK to ignore the rest of my comment.

Which part?

I don't agree with OP. I see things quite differently.

Ds1 has an ASD diagnosis, Aspergers. And yes, I've had a rough ride at certain points. It's bought me to my knees.

But I still don't see things the way OP does. I see the world as quite uncompromising and I take the view that I have to teach Ds1 how to fit in 'enough', to make him happy.

You can't force deep friendship. Why I a deeper friendship with 2 of my friends rather than another 2 is a complex issue.

99% of adults on here would refuse to engage or feel uncomfortable with an adult who was like that and everyone thinks that’s fine it seems.

The thread has certainly made me reflect on this. I don’t have any adult friends with serious learning disabilities. I don’t really encounter any in social situations where the chance to strike up friendships is possible, right enough, but still...

The issue here though is that it’s this focusing on the right to exclude someone on the basis of protecting your personal boundaries that’s stopping children forming friendships with others. Because while you talk about them being able to walk away from a child who is different to them, they are not going to get to know that child beyond the behaviours which make them feel uncomfortable in the first place.

Remember that no person is defined by one behaviour alone. If all you see is the one thing which invades your child’s personal space then it stands to reason that your child is never going to look beyond that to the individual beyond that behaviour, iyswim.

And children do learn these things from the adults around them. Case in point, I am VI and until recently had a guide dog. Often people will stop me and want to stroke/feed/interact with the dogs, and it’s by far the adults who have needed the most explanation or deterring from feeding the dog, whereas I have encountered families where the child has said to the adult “no, you’re not supposed to feed the dog,” or “you’re meant to ask if you can stroke him.”

By continually perpetuating the idea that it’s ok to exclude anyone based on their own thoughts and feelings it is actually the adults who are teaching their children this behaviour.

And while I can totally see that sometimes it just isn’t possible to form friendships with certain children for whatever reason, the fact is that if we as adults automatically stop the process at the point where the child feels vaguely uncomfortable for whatever reason, we are discouraging that child from looking beyond and forming friendships which might have happened if they were able to look beyond the one thing at the individual in question.

@NameChange84 I hope you’re right!
As I said previously, I don’t think friendships should be forced or that children should be forced to spend time with others that make them feel unsafe or uncomfortable. I do however think we should, as parents be teaching our children that just because someone may look different, act different or speak differently etc these are not reasons to avoid or exclude. We should find out what is making our children feel uncomfortable or unsafe and try to explain to them using age appropriate language the reason another child may be acting in a certain way.
I don’t know the answer but I do know I will be teaching my child to be kind and to treat others the way he himself would like to be treated

Just chipping in here (never a wise thing and I'm sure I'll regret this) but...

I am an adult, I have my own quirks and difficulties and flaws and attributes, etc..

I sometimes find Amanda Holden annoying and switch off the TV when she's on.

I shouldn't think she cares one little bit. She's very successful, has her own life, and couldn't care less about what someone she's never met thinks about her!! It's my right to find her annoying though, and my right to switch off the TV so I don't have to watch her! (and if I was ever on TV (extremely unlikely!!) it'd be her right to switch me off too..)

Really vile...my dd is a sweetheart, she doesn't get in anyone's personal space. She is extremely shy, but actually loves joining in once she feels secure.
So sad she has said to me that she feels like other children think she's weird...she even said to me why can't she be normal...but who cares huh that she feels uncomfortable a lot of the time...we couldn't possibly expect the popular crew to be put in the same position.

Good luck to you herculepoirot2 Sounds like you'll end up raising an entitled little madam.

AlternativePerspective

But the alternative is teaching small children that it is not okay to withdraw from situations that make them feel unsafe or uncomfortable.

herculepoirot I’m sure it’s not the case but you are coming across as ableist and not very pleasant and it’s sad you’re facilitating the same in your daughter.

I’ll say the same as I say about smug ableist parents I come across in real life. One day this could be you having to deal with your child being ostracised and told they’re a “weirdo” because they don’t find the world an easy place to deal with as others (for whatever reasons). Special needs and disability can happen to anyone or anyone’s child. I didn’t think it would happen to me or my family. It did. It could happen to you. At any time.

No one is suggesting that you need to force her to be friends with people she doesn’t want to be. But it might not go amiss to explore why people might make her feel “uncomfortable” just by being different before just blithely telling her she can walk off. Because when she gets older, into the world of work etc behaving in that way will do her no favours.

Good luck to you herculepoirot2 Sounds like you'll end up raising an entitled little madam.

Not a madam so far. She’s lovely. But entitled? Yes, in the traditional, non-snarky sense of the word, I hope I do. I hope I raise a child who realised that she is entitled to walk away from situations and interactions that she is not enjoying or that make her feel unsafe. No apology for that here.

Oh blimey! This thread is moving so fast my chipping happened way after the TV conversation!!

I have a disabled child. He was tolerated and to certain extents accepted by non-disabled peers. He was never bullied much. But he only developed true friendships when he met other autistic people, OP. Others who not only accepted that he would talk only about Pokemon, but who also only wanted to talk about Pokemon.

Would I rather my DS was on one of these viral videos on Facebook where the homecoming queen does A Good Thing and invites my DS to prom instead of her jock boyfriend and gets 10000 people telling her what a good person she is? Fuck that. My son doesn't need patronising. He just needed to find people who think like him and actively want to be with him.

I don't fully agree with you OP because you want your ds to be included by kids who are not like him. This is not his natural friendship group. That does not mean they should be horrible to him.

If I as a crafter, went to a train spotting convention I would feel isolated and different, because I am not a train spotter and my language is different. Just like the train spotter would feel awkward at my Crafters convention.

Your son isn't in the NT tribe and that's a shame. But he'll find his tribe in time, and I bet it won't be made up of NT kids being kind.

No one is suggesting that you need to force her to be friends with people she doesn’t want to be

The OP was suggesting precisely that.

What have I said that is ableist?

But the alternative is teaching small children that it is not okay to withdraw from situations that make them feel unsafe or uncomfortable

Do you not think of asking her why she feels that way? You’re the parent. It’s your job to explore if she just doesn’t want to be around people she sees as “different” or whether they are actually invading her personal space or making her feel uncomfortable.

Do you not think of asking her why she feels that way? You’re the parent. It’s your job to explore if she just doesn’t want to be around people she sees as “different” or whether they are actually invading her personal space or making her feel uncomfortable.

I don’t think you have read my posts properly if you are asking me this. I have already answered it.

Do you not think of asking her why she feels that way? You’re the parent. It’s your job to explore if she just doesn’t want to be around people she sees as “different” or whether they are actually invading her personal space or making her feel uncomfortable.

I think just about everyone posting has said they would do that, including the poster you’re addressing.

Apparently it’s not enough.

Your whole attitude as evinced on this post is ableist. Suggesting it’s OK for your daughter it’s OK just to walk away from disabled people just for being who they are. As I said, it could happen to you. I bet you’d be the first on here moaning if anyone dared to walk away or find your precious child less than perfect.

But it might not go amiss to explore why people might make her feel “uncomfortable” just by being different before just blithely telling her she can walk off.

I might have missed it, but I don’t think there have been any posters who have said they’re averse to this? You can do this as well as reinforce your child’s knowledge they can withdraw themselves from situations that make them uncomfortable (in all cases, not sen related).

Your whole attitude as evinced on this post is ableist. Suggesting it’s OK for your daughter it’s OK just to walk away from disabled people just for being who they are. As I said, it could happen to you. I bet you’d be the first on here moaning if anyone dared to walk away or find your precious child less than perfect.

No it isn’t, and no I wouldn’t.

@LatteLove, have you actually read the thread?