To urge you to teach your children to be genuinely inclusive, not just polite?

[gingerginger2]

My kids are back at school this week (Scotland) and after a summer of seeing them without the context of their peers it’s a sadness again to see them interacting with other children.

On their own, they are sweet, silly, funny, kind, playful, interesting, creative, chatty. They are part of the world, full of wonder and learning and play.

But in the context of kids their age, they are different. They both have learning disabilities and dyspraxia.

They don’t know this though, they don’t quite realise they are “different” yet. They are little, they learn slowly, despite the constant lessons from society’s exclusions. They run up to their “friends” in such a carefree happy way, eager to talk, play, connect. It doesn’t seem to occur to them not to.

And when they do they mainly encounter silence. Uncomfortable polite looks. Or polite confused monosyllabic mumbles followed by eager escapes into actual easy friendships groups. Or at best a short conversation in a humouring tone, a tone learnt by imitating the tones adults take with small silly children.

There’s not really any unkindness. There’s just a refusal to actually engage, to get to know, to connect. An embarrassment and unwillingness to spend time with my children’s lack of social skills, messy clothes, an uncomfortableness at their invasion of their personal space. So a brief hello before getting on with actual friendships and relationships and life. An obvious desire to politely not engage. A smile with the lips not the eyes.

I’m amazed they don’t seem to realise that they’ve been snubbed again. But they din’t Mainly. Learning disability means everything is hard to learn I guess. But it’ heartbreaking to see they just carry on and continue to fling themselves at people, wide open, encountering boundaries wherever they go. I worry that soon they’ll start to realise and feel the pain of these rejections.

I worry too that maybe they do feel the pain. Maybe it goes somewhere deep, and maybe they are learning day by day that people don’t like them. That society isn’t for them.

I hate it.

Please can you teach your children to be more than polite and kind to their peers with disabilities? Please can you urge them to actually get to know them, to actually connect and include them? Even when they are messy, annoying, noisy and a bit weird. Even then?

I don't want other children to go out of their way to make friends with my dd,because they feel they have to. I just would like them to treat her like they treat everyone else (i.e NT people) & not think she's 'weird' or 'odd' or unapproachable.

I am totally bemused by the pile on that Hercule is getting. She's been rational, empathetic, calm and straightforward yet she's getting angry responses that other people who have made the same points less carefully, have not had. She's made it clear that she would talk to her child and encourage acceptance and inclusion. But she and most other parents have recognised that you cannot and should not force a relationship.

This is one of those areas where there is no simple answer. As Clover said, children are children. Holding them up to some level of understanding that most adults can't muster, is unfair.
It's absolutely tragic for parents of children who can't make inroads into a social group, and it must be so upsetting to see.
All that parents of NT children can do, is talk with their children, encourage them to empathise, and model inclusion and connections by their own behaviour.

This is such an interesting post. We live next door to a girl who is the same age as my son. She has certain disabilities and ADHD. They all go to different schools and so don't know each other.

But on the weekend she comes and knocks at least 5 times a day to play with my 2. But they don't want to play - they are usually still in their PJs playing LEGO with each other or reading non or we are just hanging and spending time together as a family. I work very long hours in the week and see this as family time. So we always say no yo this girl playing - my 2 just aren't interested and I feel this is their home and I have to respect that. When we have said yes arguments break out quickly as they don't want to do what she wants to do and vice versa.

Anyway, at a neighbours house party recently it became quite obvious that the mother think we are rude and are excluding her daughter. To be clear, the mother never comes over with the daughter and I don't see them otherwise. But there is an expectation that we shouldn't exclude her and allow her to come into our house and play because she finds making friends difficult. I am still firmly of the belief that excluding is wrong but equally if my kids don't want neighbours in their home then I should respect and listen to my children.

It's driving me mad as we have had another 3 knocks today already (not UK) and I've said no.

@herculepoirot2 but where do you put your own boundary on “makes them feel uncomfortable”? You see, it’s very easy to support that decision when it’s e.g. a child who gets too close to your personal space. But what if it’s a child who doesn’t speak good English? Or a child with only one arm? Or one in a wheelchair? Should your child have the right to exclude those children on the basis that their attributes make them “uncomfortable?”

Remember that CBeebies presenter who only had one arm and parents complained and wanted her taken off the air because she made their children feel uncomfortable? Do you think that those complaints should have been upheld? And if so, why? And if not, why not, when you say yourself your child has the right to extricate themselves from situations where they feel uncomfortable?

You cannot force children to be friends though. It doesn't matter what you say/model, they will click with certain people and not with others. And you also can't expect people to be ok with having their personal space disregarded. My daughter has a lot off different friends, from different backgrounds, including children with SN. It's not because I've forced or told her to, it has to happen naturally otherwise it'll never be an actual friendship. There's nothing anyone can do or say to make people click with certain other people. We teach tolerance in the hope that it turns into friendship. It is terribly sad for your children but you can't spend your life being angry at other people and their children, it's not going to help anyone. Try and get your children into clubs where they can share interests with other children, they'll have something in common, whether it's sports or art or whatever. It helps massively to have that shared interest as foundation. Try to work on the personal space issue, I know it's not that simple, I know it can take time or they may never get it, but surely trying to help with that can only give them a better chance at creating bonds. I feel for you, I really do, but you can't blame other children for acting in a way that prevents them being made to feel uncomfortable when they are taught this to protect their safety (not from your children obviously, but from those with less kind intentions)

Saraclara, I really don't think you get. It's about society as a whole not children being children.

herculepoirot2 but where do you put your own boundary on “makes them feel uncomfortable”? You see, it’s very easy to support that decision when it’s e.g. a child who gets too close to your personal space. But what if it’s a child who doesn’t speak good English? Or a child with only one arm? Or one in a wheelchair? Should your child have the right to exclude those children on the basis that their attributes make them “uncomfortable?”

She doesn’t have the right to exclude anybody, for any reason. She doesn’t have the right to start games in the playground and say X can’t play because they only have one arm. She doesn’t have the right to sit down at lunch and say X can’t sit there because he doesn’t speak good English.

She has the right to decline social interactions like walking alone for 5 minutes with X. If she doesn’t want to be friends she doesn’t have to be.

Remember that CBeebies presenter who only had one arm and parents complained and wanted her taken off the air because she made their children feel uncomfortable? Do you think that those complaints should have been upheld? And if so, why? And if not, why not, when you say yourself your child has the right to extricate themselves from situations where they feel uncomfortable?

My child can switch the TV off if she really doesn’t want to watch someone with one arm present CBeebies. She doesn’t have the right to insist on anything to do with someone’s employment. Don’t be silly.

Ok, so here's a thing. Say someone's SN child with behavioural issues wants to be friends with my very reticent little 2.5yo daughter in the park. They come over to her, stand too close for comfort, shout excitedly, put their fingers on her face. She comes running back to me to escape this invasion. What do I do as a good mother/person? Do I:

(a) act as my instincts tell me and protect her from a situation that is upsetting her and which I don't know how it is going to develop as I do not know the child.

(b) take her back over to the child and encourage her to put up with this behaviour because the SN child is only and innocently seeking to connect with her? In this case I am worried that what I am teaching her is that her own boundaries (which with a non-SN child and indeed other adults would be reasonable, safe boundaries) are not correct and do not matter.

(c) crouch down with her and encourage the SN child to come over and try to encourage him to interact in a way that is more comfortable for my daughter? In this case I am worried I stand to be accused of not understanding the nature of his SN (of course I don't, I don't know him!), of trying to quash his distinctiveness, and possibly of trying to discipline someone stranger's child which is a pretty massive nono in out culture as it stands, whatever your views on that.

In my idea world, the child's parent would be there and monitoring closely, and we could meet each others eye and come and supervise the interaction between our children, with mutual respect for each other's situation. If of course their situation (how many other kids they have, if any of them are babies or also have SN and need close supervision, etc) allowed them to.

But it's a minefield. And if it is for me as an adult, how can I expect my girl in 2 or so years time to be able to confidently strike the balance with no close supervision in a playground?

Moreover, my whole life has been blights because I was taught to always put myself last, that it was my responsibility to make others comfortable, to save them and fix them, to prioritise their needs. I am determined not to do this to my daughter, so the life she ends up with is the one she wants, not the one she ended up with after making sacrifice after sacrifice for other's needs. Does that make me a bad mother? Or just a bad person?

I think it's quite clear on here certain people have a fixed view on SN, which is really quite sad and should have been expelled donkeys years ago, but this can't happen when the parents keep impressing such views and opinions.

I don't think anyone is saying parents should force their children into unsafe environments, it's about teaching children to be inclusive with children and by your own action you contribute to teaching them what is "comfortable" or not. If you are dragging your child away from people with SN or those who are different, they in turn, will believe that they should be weary of that.

I thought it was lovely the post about the dad at the birthday party welling up, some people just don't (or don't want to) realise the lives others live.

herculepoirot2
In both ur points to relate to keeping her daughter safe. She is not automatically
At harm from a SN person. Obviously there is some SN children that can be violent, but they r def not all.

God, can we stop this hysteria over boundaries and personal space. We are talking about disabled children...not bloody Jimmy Saville reincarnated. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

She is not automatically
At harm from a SN person. Obviously there is some SN children that can be violent, but they r def not all.

I did not say or imply otherwise. My DD has a right to take action to make herself feel safe or comfortable. Sometimes she won’t be in any danger or there won’t be any rational reason for her discomfort. But we are talking about small children, and they don’t always know this. The choice is a stark one: teach my child that she is, ultimately, allowed to walk away, or teach her that she is not. I can do the former while teaching her to be kind. I won’t do the latter for any reason.

I think this is one of the most poignant and important threads I have read in a long time. Thank you OP for generating this important topic

It’s really not a minefield weaningwoes

You’d tell her it’s ok to not play with her because she stuck her fingers in her face. The fact the child has a disability is irrelevant. You’d tell your child to do the same with ANY child that stuck her fingers in her face.

You see your child excluding / not replying / not inviting a child because they are disabled / black / poor etc you have a conversation with them about perhaps not judging someone. Discuss disability, race, homosexuality WHATEVER it is then they might realise they might be missing out on getting to know someone.

If they make an effort and they don’t like them for a reason other than a disability, whatever reason that is, then that’s ok. Disabled people can be horrible just the same as NT people can be.

They can also be lovely, have brilliant qualities and deserve to be given a chance just like everyone else.

Nothing ‘forced’ about it. At. All.

*Hercule, yes I think in a society your child should be obliged to have social interactions with those with learning disabilities. Not forced friendship. But yes, social interactions.

At the very least social interactions

But mere “social interactions” isn’t enough for the OP. She said in her opening post that other children being “polite and kind” wasn’t enough. There needs to be more effort to genuinely “connect”. Obviously being polite and kind involves social interaction - it’s hard to be either without it! Equally, “smiling at the lips but not the eyes” isn’t enough.

These are young children being discussed.

Posters have agreed that they would tackle any disablist or racist prejudice noted in their child; they would explain how hurtful exclusion is and how the disabled child is likely to feel; they would help and encourage their child to critically reflect (in as much as they are able at that age) on the reasons for any discomfort the child may feel; they would ensure that a disabled child is not excluded from birthday parties, etc.

What more in the way of social inclusion can they be expected to do whilst respecting their child’s rights to boundaries?

Why are we assuming that kids can dx what drs and adults miss kids entire lives.

Again we are assuming kids can assess and diagnose in split seconds of an interaction and decide what they will put up with or indeed inflict themselves upon ( because let's face it a child NT or with SN may well not cope with my dd coming up and talking to them about a dog she just met..) accordingly.

I find this very strange. With many kids you have no idea.

Again this is why we need adults managing the situation.

What more in the way of social inclusion can they be expected to do whilst respecting their child’s rights to boundaries?

The OP doesn’t appear to respect my child’s right to boundaries. According to her, my child should have to talk to hers and “connect”, not withdraw at her own point of preference.

This post really made me think. One of my best friends is autistic - but when I first met him at school I thought he was weird. He would sit next to me in class and babble incessantly about his specialist topic. And I'm sure I was really short with him about it.

I didn't know he was autistic at the time, and I actually didn't know what autism was at all. Looking back now, I wish I had known. I would never have been so callous if I had known. I shouldn't have been callous anyway and I regret it. I'm lucky he never took it personally or we wouldn't be friends now.

So yes, I do wish kids were taught to be more inclusive. I wish they were educated on special needs and how to effectively interact with those children. It would make the world a better place.

All these children will grow up and want to get jobs. They won't get them because it might make people like hercule uncomfortable.

All their strengths will be ignored and only their differences seen.

You think it's OK for your daughter to turn the TV off because a presenter looked different? Have you heard yourself?

I have read a lot of the thread but not the full thread as I'm coming to this late, so sorry if I miss something.

I'm a little reluctant to post because I genuinely genuinely feel for you OP and I would find it hard in your position

As a family we don't lack empathy. I have a brother with severe mental health and other difficulties who is v vulnerable and clearly looks different and behaves how others would percieve as 'oddly' and it breaks my heart to this day (he's middle age now) when people actively glare at him or avoid him. I would like people to say hi to him, be friendly, maybe have a chat sometimes when they see him etc... But I wouldn't expect people who don't share his interests and don't feel drawn to him, to start hanging out with him everyday and inviting him home for coffee. That would of course be lovely, but totally not their responsibility or something I or he would expect. (I think it would be awkward and weird for him too, as unless two people are naturally drawn to each other and connected, the whole exchange can feel, and is, rather fake). The same is true for children in a class. I'd expect them to be kind to each other, say hi, have a chat sometimes and maybe play together occasionally, but it's unrealistic to expect or force a child to form true and close friendships and have playdates etc...., Except with kids they naturally feel drawn to.

I am a mum of two DC who I love to bits. I want them to be kind and caring and inclusive and, for their age, I'd say they are and are both lovely. However, while I think it's really important that my children are accepting and kind to everyone in their class, including the children in their class who are tall, short, have long hair, short hair, have SEN, are white, are black, are good at maths, are sporty, like drawing etc.....), it this their choice who they choose to play with and who they are friends with. Both my children attend a very multicultural school and naturally have gravitated towards children from the same cultural background. They play with everyone and are kind to everyone, but (actually rather to my surprise for some reason!) have naturally formed closer friendships with people who seem to look a bit like them and who's family seems a bit like ours. All natural, no interference from me. I'd rather they had more diverse friendships in some ways, but they have chosen who to spend most time with and who to have home on play dates. They often talk about other kids in their class, including Jimmy who likes maths and Sam who is fench and Belinda who has SEN, and will.often okay with kids outside their immediate friendship group including Belinda (and sometimes this is because the teachers have asked him to look after Belinda a bit today, or take her under his wing a bit because she's out of sorts that day), but he wouldn't seek out Belinda or Jimmy or Sam because they are not his closest friends and not to he chooses to play with, because he is naturally drawn to others (like you and I are drawn to some people and not others). I think that's fine.

You think it's OK for your daughter to turn the TV off because a presenter looked different? Have you heard yourself?

You think it’s okay to force your child to watch TV? Have you heard yourself? Should I develop some sort of head-holding, eye-opening device?

We are free individuals. If my DD does not want to watch someone on TV, she gets the option of turning it off. And yes, a lecture from me about her unkindness. But she isn’t going to be tied up and forced to watch it, because I am not a psycho.

Utterly depressing. I fear for my children.

Well at least I understand more now why my family lives in a different world of exclusion.

Because many people believe that a more privileged individuals right to personal choice is more important than a less privileged individual’s right to be merely be included in society .

*play not okay!

Because many people believe that a more privileged individuals right to personal choice is more important than a less privileged individual’s right to be merely be included in society

I am always going to defend my child’s right to make choices. I am very sorry for you that your children are struggling socially, but my child is a person too, and those choices constitute her freedom. You can’t seriously expect me to subordinate her freedom to your child’s happiness.