To urge you to teach your children to be genuinely inclusive, not just polite?

[gingerginger2]

My kids are back at school this week (Scotland) and after a summer of seeing them without the context of their peers it’s a sadness again to see them interacting with other children.

On their own, they are sweet, silly, funny, kind, playful, interesting, creative, chatty. They are part of the world, full of wonder and learning and play.

But in the context of kids their age, they are different. They both have learning disabilities and dyspraxia.

They don’t know this though, they don’t quite realise they are “different” yet. They are little, they learn slowly, despite the constant lessons from society’s exclusions. They run up to their “friends” in such a carefree happy way, eager to talk, play, connect. It doesn’t seem to occur to them not to.

And when they do they mainly encounter silence. Uncomfortable polite looks. Or polite confused monosyllabic mumbles followed by eager escapes into actual easy friendships groups. Or at best a short conversation in a humouring tone, a tone learnt by imitating the tones adults take with small silly children.

There’s not really any unkindness. There’s just a refusal to actually engage, to get to know, to connect. An embarrassment and unwillingness to spend time with my children’s lack of social skills, messy clothes, an uncomfortableness at their invasion of their personal space. So a brief hello before getting on with actual friendships and relationships and life. An obvious desire to politely not engage. A smile with the lips not the eyes.

I’m amazed they don’t seem to realise that they’ve been snubbed again. But they din’t Mainly. Learning disability means everything is hard to learn I guess. But it’ heartbreaking to see they just carry on and continue to fling themselves at people, wide open, encountering boundaries wherever they go. I worry that soon they’ll start to realise and feel the pain of these rejections.

I worry too that maybe they do feel the pain. Maybe it goes somewhere deep, and maybe they are learning day by day that people don’t like them. That society isn’t for them.

I hate it.

Please can you teach your children to be more than polite and kind to their peers with disabilities? Please can you urge them to actually get to know them, to actually connect and include them? Even when they are messy, annoying, noisy and a bit weird. Even then?

And I think this is a really good and honest post OP
You may not believe it but the message filters through

I hope so, even if people don’t admit it.

I’m not.
I’m saying that it’s not an issue with most kids with SN.
My ds has had far more of it from NT kids than he’s ever perpetrated. Should I base theories about how NT kids should be treated on that? Or would that be irrational, stupid and deliberately diversionary?
I know what I think.

Surely children aren’t any less capable of being inclusive than adults are? Perhaps it’s to do with personality type as much as being taught. With most things it’s nurture as well as nature .

Hmmmmm.... Interesting train of thought. Might need to do some research into this. Infirmation Usually helps.

Anyone got any anthropological/child developmental study leads into the human ability to be inclusive? Actually made there’s something hard wired in looking for those similar to us? An evolutionary advantage maybe? Or maybe the opposite? Hmmmmm?

But you have made us all think OP. And hopefully some of us will try a bit harder in future.

My own DS has a friend who is not neurotypical. He’s very loud, a bit prone to meltdowns. His mum has worked very hard since he was a toddler to build a group around him. So she often hosts things at her house, takes the boys on trip etc. And it has worked. My own DS freely admits the boy can be hard work, but he’s his mate and the whole group seem to accept him for how he is, and stick up for him when they need to.

At the moment friendship is about riding a bike or kicking a ball around, but hopefully they will all maintain their friendship as they get older.

As for the issue of personal space, I can only suggest that some on this thread never travel to Russia, many parts of Asia, etc. 😅 You do realise that the concept of personal space is entirely culturally determined, rather than being a universal, innate sense. Most people absorb their own particular unspoken cultural rules with ease, whether that means standing shoulder to shoulder or maintaining a good arm’s length. But some children need to be explicitly taught such things. If they haven’t quite mastered these rules, it surely doesn’t mean that others should use that as an excuse to exclude them.

Thanks, i’m Glad it’s made folk think x

My son with asd is absolutely inclusive in his interest in people which can be quite beautiful although I do worry about his boundaries. People light up when he asks their name excitedly - the very sad looking homeless man on the street the other day for example . I hope to teach him boundaries but not crush this interest in people and the joyous way he approaches them.

When I consider, actually, the treatment my ds and others like him have from NT kids, I could extrapolate some pretty unpleasant theories about the latter.
But that wouldn’t go down well at all. Don’t generalise, you would say. Be open minded. Treat people as individuals,
Right back atcha. You do that for my kid, favour will be returned a thousandfold.

And yes , obviously the personal space thing is a red herring. My kids din’t respect personal space, both are totally sensory seeking. But of course that is not true stalk for every SN child, everyone is different. That’s just obvious surely? I was just describing my kids, not SN kids in general

“I hope to teach him boundaries but not crush this interest in people and the joyous way he approaches them“

YES exactly that!! Beautifully put Penny. I often feel that my kids openess is one of their strengths in a sea of difficulties. I so din’t want To crush it, as much as I know it has to be tempered for their safety.

@TheBigBallOfOil you can base it on all.
I won't tolerate my personal space being invaded regardless of who's doing it.

So I would not go out of my way to tolerate that for anyone. And I would never not teach my children to compromise either.

Surely children aren’t any less capable of being inclusive than adults are? Perhaps it’s to do with personality type as much as being taught.

I think it’s more about how the brain develops. Children lack theory of mind and it takes many years for it to develop.

OP I haven't read the whole thread as it is long but have tried to read most of it.

I have had a slightly similar experience to you with one of my dc. In case it helps, what I did was to spend a lot of time teaching them about how other kids might see their behaviour, to explain to dc how they might be different to other kids but how they can bridge the gap, to believe that even if they were different in some ways, they were also perfect, and also interpreted for my dc the behaviour of other kids, and that if someone was nice to them but not interested to just move on and make friends with someone else. It paid dividends.

This might help your dc a bit as an alternative to waiting to see if they notice and hope they don't notice/get hurt? There are some very good books out there about rules of friendship and social rules and making friends etc to help. Some kids learn social rules naturally, others don't but can be taught the rules.

If this isn't helpful, then please just ignore.

It is worth remembering that all the children are going to be learning social rules and behaviour at this age, however adept they seem, many will not be confident.

I would also say you need to get the teacher on board if you want to see changes at school.

Also, inclusion comes more naturally where people are understood.

It also means that he brings out the best in people sometimes... when he had a meltdown on the bus the other day it was a very destitute looking man who showed the most concern for him and kindness because my son had run up to sit on the seats near him when he was upset and something about it all had obviously touched the man. My son does not notice difference in the same way and so people are their best selves to him and so they act as their best selves to him. Of course I will be reasonably wary and try to teach him to recognise when people are potentially a danger but I hope to teach him to keep this way of seeing past a person’s superficial appearance.

This thread has certainly made me think, and feel I should make more effort to include everyone from DDs class in playdates (on different days).

@gingerginger2 - does it help your children to have highly structured playdates?

With some kids, you can just invite them over & they just play with no adult involvement or support. But for other playdates, both my children and the visiting children have a better time if I create a structured activity (decorating cupcakes, board games etc) and do the work of keeping them focused. My intuition is that the latter is more useful for building a friendship that maybe was a bit shaky before the playdate.

So what I'm trying to suggest is that we don't have a binary choice between
a) tell kids they must include everyone even if they don't want to
or
b) let kids repeatedly ignore another child who doesn't fit in.

Instead, we should go for option c which is
c) create an environment where it is easy to include everyone. If the parents and teachers model inclusion and creates activities that everyone can do & enjoy, then the kids will become friends without having to be lectured about 'inclusion'.

At least, that is my hope. Can it work?

my son is not socially confident and doesn’t have many friends. He’s also quite young.

He befriended a nice little boy with asd, he adapted well to this little boys differences and I encouraged play dates.

Then one day, the little boy, out of no where, took his shoe off and threw it directly in my sons face. It hurt and he was really upset about it. He didn’t want to go round again after that.

What should I have done? I’m genuinely asking and not trying to be goady, wwyd?

This makes me so sad.

My 6 year old has been around a varied spectrum of people since she was weeks old. I have developed friendships with some very lovely people with learning disabilities. Together we have learned how to make things work. Every couple of weeks I have the pleasure of sitting with a gentleman with a challenging speech problem. She has seen that we need to move somewhere quite, we sit at a table rather than stand with lots of people getting their drinks, and that I need to take extra time to listen to him. He has lots of funny and insiteful things to say. Another lady who loved holding her since she was a newborn is very huggy. I love getting hugs from her, she gives some of the best! She and I actually have very similar tastes TV programs and films, I enjoy talking to her about the latest episodes and we are sometimes lucky enough to be able to meet at the cinema together. It's always a pleasure to see her, my daughter loves seeing her too and get quite put out when some of her carers think we should be talking through them, after all they are the strangers we simply want to acknowledge in that situation.

I hope that I am teaching her to look past people's differences and appreciate their uniqueness. In fact at the moment she wants to go on holiday to meet my online friend who just happens to have lots of health problems, is on the spectrum and is a wheelchair reliant amputee. But all dd sees is that she loves animals and knows lots of intresting facts about them, that she talks honestly about her struggles and encourages her to ask questions rather than worry and feel scared. She has stood up for people who appear different and asked questions rather than stare and reminded her peer group that they shouldn't be rude.

However I dispare at the fact school is turning her into a child who is looking for the first polite opportunity to get away from the children who are different. Unfortunately she is told to play with someone else when she asks for help with navigating an issue with a child who struggles socially, to sort it out herself, not to tell tales, that the adult in that situation doesn't care. She has been friends with a bouncy livly full on little boy since they were in nursery. The schools attitude is meaning she is thinking about the fact it is better not to play with him there because no one will help at play time when she is overwhelmed by him. She tells me she'll play when they are in the park together or we meet up at soft play but not a school because she can't ask an adult to help navigate a situation she doesn't have the skills to yet. Where as when parents are there we step in and find the middle ground they can't yet. Complaining about insidents when I hear about them just seems to get the boy a delayed telling off when what he really needed was an adult reinforcing the appropriate behaviour and redirecting they play so they could all join in. A simple dd doesn't like that you need to stop, you ca play with them but not when you're doing that, do x and you'll all enjoy the game.

I do feel sorry for all children in this situation. At my daughter's school at 4 they are pretty much thrown to the wolves and left to sort thing out themselves at playtime. Many may never have experienced children with additional needs before. There is no modeling from adults for children who might be in the position of truly independent play for the first time. They have a small playground with some painted hopscotch type games, a small section of climbing wall and access to a small jungle gym. Which all basically adds up to if you can't engage in imagery games or run around playing chase, you're going to struggle to have friends to play with. They need things to play with to level the field for all, adults helping start games that more people can join in with. The MTAs are moved around constantly and not encouraged to play with the children, they are crowd control and there to point children to first aid at most. Children who are entitled to one to one's often don't get them as there aren't enough avaliable. Ds has additional need, not sure to what extent yet, but we are very likely to send him to a different school as while her school meets dd's needs well he will likely need something very different to help him thrive.

Parietal,

It’s hard to say in general, because every child with SN is different! And also every kid is different!

For instance, generally yes my DS would be better on a play date if there was structural and adult intervention.
Although there is one boy DS knows who is really empathetic and able to play with my DS and they will generally play well together without intervention. But mainly because if the other child, as he is able to manage my DS when he gets over excited, ask him to calm down and not take it personally.

I think the best thing to do is ask the SN child’s parent/s for advice. Directly! Without embarrassment! The boy I mentioned’s mum does that! She’s wonderful. She directly asks me what my son needs, and directly tells me when there’s a problem. We sort it out. I can’t help but think that her son gets it from her.

This thread is certainly an eye opener.

I realise i was being far too generous in thinking the other parents in my dds class were just thoughtless, and if they knew how much their exclusion hurt her, they'd change their behaviour and be more inclusive.

Now I can see that actually they're not thoughtless...it's clearly deliberate.

Oh and to dress up this shit as being a way to teach children about personal space and boundaries is absolute nonsense.

The schools attitude is meaning she is thinking about the fact it is better not to play with him there because no one will help at play time when she is overwhelmed by him.

I completely agree that this wrong. I completely agree that children need help with complex social situations and don’t get that help at school.

But, surely they would need 10x the number of staff to facilitate this. Presumably this would be very expensive. I would happily pay and I believe it’s very important, but I’m not sure most would.

I think it’s more about how the brain develops. Children lack theory of mind and it takes many years for it to develop.

They also lack the prejudice, over thinking, “othering” nature of adults.

If anyone is naturally capable of inclusion it is young children.

DDs class have grown up with her, known her since she was 3 and not one of them has ever treated her as anything other than just one of the class. So much so, they sometimes forget she has a disability and leave her behind in the playground.

Children are fully capable, it’s the adults stopping it who are the problem. It is really noticeable when you see the difference between her class, who have experience of kids with disabilities, and in other groups where kids don’t, in the way children behave around her.

You do children a great disservice by assuming they are too young to understand what inclusion looks like.

Oh and to dress up this shit as being a way to teach children about personal space and boundaries is absolute nonsense.

👏👏👏

Out of interest @jaqueshammer, what did lead your daughter to decide she’d share with the other girl, at the end of year trip? Had something prevented her including the girl previously?

OP if it was mycm that made you think things will get worse, I'm sorry. It was our experience that things were worse for DS1 in secondary school, but that was because overall it was a terrible school with dreadful discipline problems. They had enough on their hands with bullying issues without getting close to inclusion and empathy. I know of others for whom it was the reverse - secondary school was much better. I hope things get easier for you and am sending love, because it is so hard xxx