To urge you to teach your children to be genuinely inclusive, not just polite?

[gingerginger2]

My kids are back at school this week (Scotland) and after a summer of seeing them without the context of their peers it’s a sadness again to see them interacting with other children.

On their own, they are sweet, silly, funny, kind, playful, interesting, creative, chatty. They are part of the world, full of wonder and learning and play.

But in the context of kids their age, they are different. They both have learning disabilities and dyspraxia.

They don’t know this though, they don’t quite realise they are “different” yet. They are little, they learn slowly, despite the constant lessons from society’s exclusions. They run up to their “friends” in such a carefree happy way, eager to talk, play, connect. It doesn’t seem to occur to them not to.

And when they do they mainly encounter silence. Uncomfortable polite looks. Or polite confused monosyllabic mumbles followed by eager escapes into actual easy friendships groups. Or at best a short conversation in a humouring tone, a tone learnt by imitating the tones adults take with small silly children.

There’s not really any unkindness. There’s just a refusal to actually engage, to get to know, to connect. An embarrassment and unwillingness to spend time with my children’s lack of social skills, messy clothes, an uncomfortableness at their invasion of their personal space. So a brief hello before getting on with actual friendships and relationships and life. An obvious desire to politely not engage. A smile with the lips not the eyes.

I’m amazed they don’t seem to realise that they’ve been snubbed again. But they din’t Mainly. Learning disability means everything is hard to learn I guess. But it’ heartbreaking to see they just carry on and continue to fling themselves at people, wide open, encountering boundaries wherever they go. I worry that soon they’ll start to realise and feel the pain of these rejections.

I worry too that maybe they do feel the pain. Maybe it goes somewhere deep, and maybe they are learning day by day that people don’t like them. That society isn’t for them.

I hate it.

Please can you teach your children to be more than polite and kind to their peers with disabilities? Please can you urge them to actually get to know them, to actually connect and include them? Even when they are messy, annoying, noisy and a bit weird. Even then?

Just wanted to say, THANK YOU to all the folk who have posted saying my OP has made them think. That was nice of you to do that, it has made me feel that my efforts in expressing my feelings today might do someone somewhere some good, and that cheers me up a bit. Thank you!

Thanks too to all those that have empathised and posted their experiences that chime with my own. I’m so sorry that you’re feeling as crap as me, but thank you for sharing, helps with the loneliness for sure. Bit scared to read that it only gets worse though :-(

I’m staying out of the racism/disablism anologies personally.

The discussion of the possible conflictions in practising inclusion and teaching boundaries are interesting too. My first instinct is it’s possible to do both surely. But i’ll Think on more.

And lastly for all those saying that we shouldn’t expect children to be able to do what we can’t do as adults and be friends with diverse people of all abilities, then i’d Say I feel very sorry for you! I personally have lots of friendships with people who are different to me. These friendships are all very different. I don’t necessarily do the same things/ talk about the same subjects with them all. Some of them
Are driven more by my interests, some by their interests, some by shared interests. Some feed me, some I give more than I take. I learn from all of them. If I had NT kids i’d Be teaching them to do the same.

Luckily i’m Blessed with children that treat everyone with the same respect curiosity and love naturally. :-) some of you will have more of a challenge ;-)

It speaks to people's general ignorance in comparing racism and disablism in this context. They are isms but very, very different historical context.

Furthermore disability cuts across race. So equating them is simple ignorance. But it's mainly those who do not experience racism who will minimise it and say to those who object that they don't know what they are talking about and of course racism and disablism are the same.

And lastly for all those saying that we shouldn’t expect children to be able to do what we can’t do as adults and be friends with diverse people of all abilities, then i’d Say I feel very sorry for you!

Why? I am happy with my friendships. You know parts of your posts I can really relate to, but you need to realise we are not all the same and we can make our own choices about friendships. You don't need to feel sorry for me because I don't have a huge diverse group of friends. I like the ones i have chosen and don't need or want any more. That's ok.

I personally have lots of friendships with people who are different to me.

Again, that's just great if you want that. We don't all.

Ok bouncing raindrops, fair enough , I take your point. I was getting a bit carried away. We are all different. Apologies.

gingerginger2 it's wrong to hide from the complexity - I do think that you need to think seriously about what you're teaching your own children. Your children don't have to be kind at all costs. Be careful, they sounds heartbreakingly adorable and sweet and trusting but they are exactly the children who the "be kind, be nice, get over your discomfort" message puts in most danger.

Contrary to my user name genuine inclusion, as opposed to integration, is an ideal with such complex ramifications that it sometimes hurts those it's meant to help. IMO.

I personally have lots of friendships with people who are different to me.

Again, that's just great if you want that. We don't all

What a weird comment. What kind of person actively thinks to themselves and has the gall to say that they don't want to be friends with people who are different to them?

One of my brothers is on the autism spectrum. He was treated terribly throughout his school years, by other children, those children’s parents, and even teachers. He was universally seen as “the weird kid” and bullied dreadfully to the point that my parents pulled him out of school (at a time when home education was all but unheard of). Not everyone bullied him, of course. Some just ignored him, probably believing they were being “polite” or perhaps even “kind.”

If they had ever attempted to look beyond his “weirdness” (as they termed it), they could have come to know the kindest person in the world, with a sharp sense of humour, deep intelligence, real compassion, and absolute loyalty. But his difficulties in the social realm were enough for them to write him off as a possible friend. I guess they just felt too uncomfortable. 🙄

Those early years had a huge impact on my brother. I don’t think I am overstating the matter to say that his whole life could have been different if he had encountered just a bit of genuine empathy, understanding, and inclusion as a child.

Outside our family, I mean.

@formerbabe really?
Many people chose friendships based on similar likes, dislikes, hobbies etc. There is nothing wrong with that.

Theresnotthatmychtoit

To be honest, you’re right. My children do need to learn some boundaries. It’s that they need teaching more than inclusion at the moment. Although that may change, they are still y0ung. It is a complex issue, for sure when thinking about those with a learning disabilities , as they are very vulnerable to abuse. It is something I give thought to, din’t worry. As well as being a parent to my two, I was a support worker for adults who have learning disabilities for 15 years.

But I personally think it’s possible to teach NT folk how to have boundaries as well as encouraging them to be inclusive . I really do!

Amen op

Gingerginger, your opening post brought tears to my eyes.

It is necessary! It is totally necessary for us to teach children from an early age that life is not just about being happy and comfortable, about your own comfort

Interesting that on other threads, in schools and life in general we actually teach children that if you are uncomfortable with a person or situation you shouldn't have to 'put up' with them or deal with them.

This could be seen as going completely against that.

It would also be interesting to see how inclusive some of the posters advocating for this would be if the SN manifests in a violent manner.

Where do you draw the line?

I really struggle with this. We have family members with disabilities, so I see both sides of it all very frequently and how hard it is for everyone.
I won’t however have my child scared because people invade his space, or worse scared because they don’t understand his allergies. He isn’t being cruel or unkind, but when someone says no to them it’s a boundary and it’s confusing when it doesn’t seem the same for other children.
I will always teach my kids that everyone is important and being kind and thoughtful are paramount, but I don’t know I would force them to be friends any more than I would anyone else.
Ie class invites are just that- full class, but select groups as they get older are harder.
In terms of what do you do- for my family member we joined family groups with other children with additional needs- it was very mixed because all were welcome so NT siblings there too,
I’m sure someone who’s own kids have been there any grown older will be able to support better with ideas

My background was in children's nursing. I have continually been shocked by attitudes of other parent's towards disability. Despite my background, when my son spoke to me (at age 6) about a child in his class (with Downs/autism) "that he had stood up and sung happy birthday to you!" (I got from the conversation that it seemed the child had misinterpreted the context of a situation.) He said all the other children laughed, (no judgement it probably was) I asked if he had, he said no, as he didn't think the child understood (that it wasn't the time to sing, this song) he said he usually did things like this, and that he seemed different to other children. I replied that he had down's syndrome, and explained this, though it then became challenging within our language to not explain the child's understanding as "less than" so I said he understood things differently. Though the attitudes of other parents never ceased to disappoint me, one said (in reference to downs child) "but I don't want my child to be held back (reference to less able children)
OP my boys are now late teens, they are (I would say this) lovely young men, (would be nice if they extended this more often to each other!) speak to the school, find people who encourage their kids to interact with a more diverse range of children. Are their any children you can invite over? support your children's interactions. There are good people out there! From my experience I see the others usually get their life lessons in one form or another. chin up

This is a really thought provoking thread. Thank you OP. I think perhaps it can depend on the disability and the context. The unknown can be scary.

As a family we have a friend who is the same age as eldest DD (she's going into year 4). He was until very recently completely non-verbal and has autism. DD loves him and plays with him but the sad fact is they're getting less in common as they get older. His school experience, the games he likes to play etc are simply different. She accepts him and loves him but the dynamic is very different from her other friendships (although this is partly the case with all her cousins / family friends as they haven't "chosen each other" in the same way as school pals who form friendships without parental intervention).

I have a friend with severe MH difficulties and it is very hard to form the same depth of friendship. She simply doesn't have the space in her life to oil the wheels of our friendship. I come away from our meet ups exhausted and on edge - she'll behave differently to other friends and can be very hurtful.

The bottom line is it can be very difficult to have an easy going, equal friendship with people who are very different to us - whether financially a lot worse off, or disabled, or at a very different life stage. Sometimes tolerance and kindness are all a person can manage.

While it is worthwhile and noble to (try and) enrich and support others and wholeheartedly accept them as friends and peers, sometimes it's really hard for adults, never mind children.

But it's mainly those who do not experience racism who will minimise it and say to those who object that they don't know what they are talking about

Yep again, substitute disablism for racism and you are spot on.

No one is saying racism and disablism are exactly the same. But they come from the same place of othering and dehumanising and fear of difference. Same as homophobia and misogyny and all kinds of prejudice really.

gingerginger2 eventually, yes. However so very many people are vulnerable - not only due to disability but to mental health issues, age, biological sex, poverty, history of being abused, lack of support (care leavers) etc. So very, very many people. The children not "getting over" their own discomfort will so often also have so much vulnerability, including but not limited to possibly undiagnosed as yet neurodiversity, not limited to ASD.

Of course children should be taught to value difference, to understand how different we all are, that we all have strengths and weaknesses, that everyone is valuable and equal no matter what.

I do actually think being polite and respectful and tolerant are the starting points.

The be kind message is so dangerous to those not in a position to think critically and analytically, and without the confidence to question, argue, and think things through.

No child under 7 is developmentally capable of that level of complex analysis.

Probably 40% of older children aren't and 30% of adults never will be...

The world is so imperfect, but telling vulnerable people that kindness and getting over themselves is the goal puts them in danger, and so very many people are vulnerable one way or another.

I respect that you know that professionally but don't feel it with your mother hat on.

Be kind puts women and children and vulnerable adults into so much danger.

I am sorry to read your post but you are expecting children to act kinder than most adults do. If you talk to the marginalised- the homeless, elderly, mentally ill, lonely in then I apologise but most adults are not inclusive. They socialise with their friends and family in their own bubble when there are people who want company. Children are copying the polite tolerating attitudes of adults. If you want change then it needs to start with adults.

And I think this is a really good and honest post OP
You may not believe it but the message filters through

We do have strategies. We are in groups. We do do disability sports. We do invite kids for play dates. We have whole class birthday parties (despite getting hardly ever invites back) . We do teach resilience. Hell I’ve even made up a bedtime story about a little cat that loves the rain, and the other cats think he’s weird and won’t play with him, so he goes and plays with fishes, frogs and sharks!

I just get down sometimes if the relentlessness of seeing my little ones excluded from normal social interactions. It hurts and sometimes more than others . After the relative isolation of the summer holidays it struck me again.

I’ll be ok tomorrow

I see this all the time with my son who has asd. We have also never been invited on a play date shd only once to a party.

Dot your post could describe my DS’ s current experience almost exactly.
People don’t want to hear this; it makes them uncomfortable; they take refuge in guff about rights, invasion of space, anything rather than face the truth that there is pain they could try to alleviate, and they’d prefer not to.
So it is. I pity them, in a way.

And tooold, no one has said racism and disablism are precisely the same. But there are parallels. If pointing those out makes you uncomfortable or angry, I’d suggest that’s saying much more about you than about anyone else.

Invasion of space is important though.
Why would you be surprised that other parents want to protect their children?