To think that there is a worrying rise of The Pushy Parent?

[ShutTheDough]

I visited my friend last week who has moved to Cambridge and happened to meet some of her friends. My friend is very down to earth and I would say has a very relaxed style of parenting. I was quite surprised about how much they invested in their children. Not saying that's a bad thing obviously but it all seemed like alot of pressure on the children. One of them already had the careers set out for their DC.
It just seemed all a bit intense tbh.

My daughter did work in China teaching English for a couple of months and doing some travelling. From what she said it's extremely difficult to learn to speak so that you can be understood by a native speaker, though she did get to grips with some basic phrases, because it's so much a matter of intonation - which isn't the case with English/French/Spanish German. The experience was, of course, an enriching one.

Hmmm I just attended a info session and tour at MIT by the admissions tutor as we’re in the area. She said the exact opposite to Brot. Apparently they don’t want lists of things kids do or a shopping list of activities. All they want is proof you’ve pushed yourself in your interested area and 4/5 very short essays including one on a hardship you’ve overcome and what you like to do.Even more interestingly she said if you like to play computer games put that, they want to hear why and don’t want 10000s of applications parroting off grade 8 cello. Their ethos was to admit nice people who will contribute to the world and work as a team.Stellar SATS I’d presume would be more than useful but she said they don’t always take the best scores.

Sounded very sensible. The place was amazing and I’m guessing incredibly hard to get into as a result. That is the kind of ethos I’d like for my dc. If other US unis want a shopping list of meaningless activities only the wealthy can afford I’d rather my dc went elsewhere. Did the Harvard tour just because and it seemed quite dull in comparison. The Ivy League fraud scandal would put me off many if I was in that cash market which we’re not.

In the UK DofE is just meaningless now. I get the impression UK unis are realising that a stream of extra curricular activities are elitist as only those with incredibly wealthy parents will have such a list.I wonder if at some point such a list will go against you. Unis at the end of the day surely want the kids most suitable for their courses not those with clearly parents who stumped up for Mandarin and a stream of things from 5.

I’m guessing Brot your dc go to a private school or one of the top London state schools.It’s great you didn’t need to go down the academic tuition route but not all parents can rely on their dc’s school and some pay for tuition to try and address the balance.

I really doubt that if you had shitty GSCEs, that ballet or violin lessons would somehow expand your career opportunities, unless you did them to a professional level.
don't get me wrong, its cool to try those things, but just as cool to try horticulture or woodwork (just nothing to brag to about in "academic" circles)
Language learning - nice if you have plans and opportunities to actually do something with them. I studied English, and that came handy as i came here, I also studied German, which basically went out of the window. I remember basic grammar and can do some shopping, read newspaper headlines. That's all. I wouldn't dare to list German on my CV.

@Owlbabie5 MIT is a specialist university that focuses on sciences so obviously they want to see passion in their core subjects.

Speaks volumes that so many posting here think having your child learn a language spoken by more than 1 billion - and one known for its difficulty if you aren’t used to its tones and characters - is a waste of time.

Middle class Chinese are all ensuring their children are bilingual in Mandarin and English and they’re doing loads of tutoring. Yeah you may not need it to get into a British uni but they’ll be applying for the same graduate jobs as your little angel. At my previous City job out of 5 graduate hires we made in my time there 4 were Chinese nationals. And it’s not a job that requires the language, it’s simply a benefit.

Being a native speaker of Mandarin is a world away from GCSE or even A level Mandarin. Neither of which would help in an office or enable writing and understanding reports, following meetings etc.Surely degree level or bi lingual expertise would be the only level to be of much use. No point in a Mandarin degree if your job requires other specialist degrees.

@Owlbabie5 MIT is an incredibly good Uni with a focus on technology, of course, computer games would be valuable. In fact any IT related interest would presumedly be. No one suggested listing anything, however it is easier to write and discuss things you have actually experienced/done, than those you have not. Also, as I previously stated my children are not solely learning things because of schooling, wealth, future professions etc. For example, I learned cello & piano and play both fluently. I have never used either professionally and neither was it intended that I would. It was also never intended that I would attend any further education at university level, related to music. However, I still do enjoy playing every now and then in the evenings to unwind and relax. They are skills that I will have for my lifetime and I do not regret learning them.

Indeed ethos such as team work (which participants of numerous sports etc have) are very important. Why is it that it's assumed that to be good at certain things means to be inadequate at others/equates unhappiness and lower social skills? I struggle to see how such a list as you put it would work against anyone, it is very easy to leave "unnecessary" activities that are not appreciated by one out and include them where they are required.

Yes my children do go to private schools. As I said I was not criticising those that need or want to tutor, I simply stated that we do not need it nor do I want it. I have friends with children in state schools who do tutor because of larger classrooms. I do not see anything wrong with it , it works perfectly for them and it is not my place nor do I have the desire to tell others how to raise their own children.

Yeah you may not need it to get into a British uni but they’ll be applying for the same graduate jobs as your little angel. At my previous City job out of 5 graduate hires we made in my time there 4 were Chinese nationals. And it’s not a job that requires the language, it’s simply a benefit.

That doesn't quite make sense to me. Is it that the Chinese graduates were felt to be superior by some other means - their work ethic - so that their being dual-language was irrelevant. Or that they were at exactly the same level as all other applicants, so that their speaking Mandarin then became the crucial factor.

The only point I was trying to make is that one might pick up - as my husband is doing - a good level of fluency in Spanish - after two or three years study. Its a Romance language which is both useful internationally and easy to learn. Whereas it might be a lot harder/take longer to get to a useful level of proficiency in Mandarin. Which doesn't mean that spending six to ten years on learning Mandarin might not have benefits. But I think a lot of parents in the UK might opt for Spanish unless there were strong cultural/business links/aspirations in relation to China.

Hmm about Chinese graduates. Met a woman who set up a business trying to teach Chinese students to fit into western workplaces as they weren’t getting hired due to cultural differences. I’ve hosted Chinese students for some years and the way those 12 year olds were treated would make you all . Abusive IMO and this is a boarding school for the Beijing political elite. We’ve stopped hosting Chinese girls now it’s too upsetting for us as a family.

A list says more about the parents than the child.

One of the MIT students said they’d put making their own board games as their activity .From my understanding it could be anything as long as it was chosen by the child and was clearly something they enjoyed and not something their parent made them do and they did because they felt they had to.

A lot of these activities are hugely expensive and out of the range of many. Surely your average child shouldn’t be denied a place because their parents weren’t wealthy. A job, overcoming adversity engaging in free activities you’ve found yourself are surely far more impressive and beneficial.

I also think most students could become proficient in these things if they had wealthy parents pushing from 4, So it really doesn’t say much about the student.

@edgeofheaven I live in London and work in the city. Never have I heard that learning any language is invaluable aside from today on MN. I have colleagues that listed native African languages some of which I had never heard of in their CV that are hardly spoken anywhere in Europe. They didn't get the positions based solely on their language skills but they had an advantage as the firm I work for has locations in some parts of Africa.

Another colleague got her US transfer based amongst other things on the fact that she speaks fluent Swedish and Norwegian( something that also worked for working visa purposes) We have deals where the main language is English but have to interact with other European offices and I as a Dutch and German speaker have been asked to translate a document or find an equivalent/comparable provision under German Law for example. We also have many Chinese and Japanese people working at the offices and I assume their language skills must be of some benefit.

Never have I heard that learning any language is invaluable aside from today on MN. I have colleagues that listed native African languages some of which I had never heard of in their CV that are hardly spoken anywhere in Europe.
NATIVE is the key word here.

A lot of these activities are hugely expensive and out of the range of many. Surely your average child shouldn’t be denied a place because their parents weren’t wealthy. A job, overcoming adversity engaging in free activities you’ve found yourself are surely far more impressive and beneficial.

There are numerous children who go to state schools, who do not take part in EC, in fact probably more than those that do. Some may be intelligent and others less so. I strongly believe that every child no matter their background is great at more than one thing, be it academically, EC wise or otherwise if given the right support and encouragement. An education doesn't define who you are, at least it doesn't define me, however I do value it and I am grateful that I received it.

Yes these activities are expensive and I am not naive to believe that they are accessible for all, but neither did I say or expect any child to be denied a place because my child did EC or went to a particular school. It might be that the child is talented in other ways etc that is, that's child's benefit and it should not be taken from them despite their background.

Why is there a negative connotation linked to wealth? Besides isn't wealth subjective? I don't understand the negativity and probably never will. I do what I believe is best for my family and myself. It works for us and is not negatively affecting anyone as far as I know. Nor are we reliant on anyone to fund anything for us. So I really shouldn't feel like I need to explain my position.

Slack mother here. I thought it was enough to love my children, send them to the local, caring but under achieving(according to Ofsted) primary school, show them simple pleasures, encourage reading, feed them well , spend lots of time with family and friends......oh wait ....it was. DD got 11 A* and an interview at Oxford.
Not bragging as it's not my success. My point is, some children will always achieve if they have the fundamentals that matter.

But Brot you are saying your dc should get preferential treatment in the form of uni places because you paid for these activities.

Why should children be denied places because their parents can’t pay or haven’t paid for these activities?

I really doubt that if you had shitty GSCEs, that ballet or violin lessons would somehow expand your career opportunities, unless you did them to a professional level

You’d be surprised!

I didn’t do well at school, got into sixth form and took a few AS Levels and then A Levels but ultimately due to problems at home only managed to scrape a D in music. Largely because I’d been playing violin and the piano since I was a kid, so already knew the fundamentals (you can’t just choose A Level music without a background in playing an instrument/studying theory so everyone in the class had been playing since their childhood). So I left with one A Level, a D in music.

Left (sort of dropped out but did attend the exams for music), played in a band for a year while working in a chippy and then managed to scrape into a good uni to study music via clearing: my A Level was crucial, but also the grades I’d achieved were enough as a package for them to offer me a place.

Did really well and came out with a high 2:1 but no intention to ever work in the music industry.

A few years later I was able to do a Social Work MA because a combination of voluntary work over the years and having a degree, any degree, was sufficient to be accepted. Was very competitive and only one place for every eight applicants. But I got in and did really well and qualified. And then a few years later was offered further training by my employer in a therapeutic modality.

Currently earning £40k, some would say that’s not much but without music I’d be still on minimum wage. Music opened doors that were closed to me otherwise. And I’m not alone in having this kind of story.

Owl! Erm, that is not what I said and frankly I do not sit on any university board or admissions offices to decide that my DC should be taken solely because they took part in EC. I am not concerned about their academics because they are all doing very well. If concerns are to arise later on, we will address them appropriately. However I don't believe academics alone however good, are sufficient. As I said I don't believe in getting into anywhere if not based on merit (whether it's EC, academics, professions etc) because sustaining the required performance/pressure that may be needed is next to impossible.

Will my DC when/where necessary mention their EC on future applications, absolutely. Particularly when apply for US uni's . I did not create the system but I am prepared to legally use the system to my advantage if and where I can, so long as I am not causing anyone, any harm. Do I look down on children who haven't undertaken EC etc, absolutely not. As I have said this is a personal choice. I do not think of what other children are doing before deciding if a sport, meal, school, instrument, holiday etc is suitable for my DC. I do what I believe may be beneficial for my DC, dependant on what our budget allows.

Some of what is being posted here is crazy! Especially @Brot64 - while it’s your choice to have your children do all those activities it just sounds very OTT!! Learning a language in your free time outside of school is too much! It’s extra schooling and Is not necessary. Most of these extra curricular activities are not necessary to have a successful job/career.

I’m from a family of 5 children. We are all highly educated - top grades, top universities and all educated to masters plus (PhD, ACA etc) and in good jobs. Our parents taught us that education was important and we were expected to do our best at school, always do our homework and study for exams. We were in a music group and did piano lessons as we all liked music. I disagree that you need more than one 30min lesson to be proficient at an instrument. I am a fully qualified pianist and had completed all royal academy exams by 17 with honors doing 30 mins on a Monday evening.

Growing up we always had plenty of time to relax around the house and just spend time together as a family or with our friends. Surely children benefit from just being with their parents/siblings in a non-structured way! It sounds like in some of these situations the only time the children spend with their parents is being ferried to and from a club!

But. Brot you are as you say using the system to advantage. It does damage others ie kids whose parents can’t or don’t provide extra curricular. I think it’s a bit shit and yes it may be legal and a few steps up from paying somebody to photoshop your dc onto the rowing team but it’s still using wealth to buy places.

I just think it’s a shit system and I’m thankful it’s less prevalent in the UK. MIT was very refreshing, I’m sure it must have it’s negatives in other ways.

(ExH, DP & I all went to US IL Uni's so do not see why DC shouldn't go).

Tbh your legacy status will be as much use to them as the extra stuff your children do. If you have the foresight to send a few dollars to the development office every year, that will be very useful too.

Where I live in the US seems like everyone is a "pushy" parent. The wealthy/private school parents have sports, music, extra languages, college summer programs, volunteer opportunities etc. The state school parents in my town have their children in town soccer/ice hockey/baseball etc from age 5 on.

I read a really interesting book a while ago - Unequal Childhoods - where a sociologist had interviewed various blue collar and middle class families in the US. The middle class families had very structured very enriched schedules with children doing clubs/sports/SAT prep/homework club/music etc etc. and were also taught to challenge authority if necessary. The blue collar families had much looser schedules with children spending more time at home, with their friends and cousins etc. and were also taught to be deferential to adults and authority.

One of mine is continuing to study Japanese, as an extra-curricular, because she enjoyed it so much and was so good at it in NZ. Her choice. She does know that it's first up against the wall at the first sign of her having trouble coping mentally or physically.

This thread makes me sad.

It's enough for me that my children are happy. I do not care at all what professions my children choose as long as they are happy and passionate about their choice and work hard.

By Mumsnet standards I'm probably a failure as a parent.

Thankfully, my children's opinions and feelings matter more to me.

It's not enough for me that my children are happy.

If they were happy sitting in my basement at 37, with no job, no prospects, no relationship, no dreams or goals or ambitions that they work towards - that's not enough for me. And I let them know it.

But what grades they get, what jobs they get, what standard of living they have, quality of life - ultimately that's up to them, their choices, their actions, their consequences. Which they fully understand and appreciate.

It is their life.

In line with that, they have our full support to do the best they can at what they choose to do, and they know that our love and approval and acceptance of them is not grade or performance dependent.

But there is an expectation that they are moving towards being fully functioning and independent adults, who are constructive and contributing members of society.

I think it might be me who's being taken as saying that I think Mandarin is useless, and I wanted to clarify that I very much don't think that. I think learning any language is a really good (possibly indispensable) intellectual exercise, and such a widely spoken one has obvious utility. Obviously when doing university admissions we would consider it as a relevant A-level grade for the entry requirements. I'm just saying that doing Mandarin as an extra curricular isn't going to make any difference to a university place in the UK - especially having done it since you were 7 or whatever. 'I've become really interested in modern China, particularly after reading X, and so started learning Mandarin last year' is an interesting and impressive narrative for an 18 year old, 'my parents signed me up for classes' isn't.

It's outside of my area of expertise but I also think it's unlikely that even starting Mandarin at nursery is going to get a native English speaker a job where they want a Mandarin speaker. Again, I don't think it's useless, and I think you gain a lot of other things from learning a language, but I don't think 'they must learn Mandarin because otherwise the Chinese will take their jobs' is at all true.