To confront SIL's about exclusion of DD?

[CorkNight]

DD is 14. She has 2 aunties on her dad’s side and 3 uncle’s. Today she came up to me and asked if me or DH had fallen out with either of the SIL’s. I said no and asked why and she showed me a Facebook post of one SIL’s. Both SIL’s, SIL1’s DD16, SIL2’s step DD’s 12 and 14 and one of my BIL’s DD15 were all on the Eurostar. They are going to Paris and come back Wednesday. SIL described it as a “girly holiday”. There are a couple of other nieces via BIL’s but they either are at uni or have young DC so they are irrelevant. DD was confused as to why she wasn’t invited. If it was just SIL1 and SIL2 with their DD’s I could put it down to a sister trip but they have invited BIL’s daughter and SIL1 posted about how she can’t wait to spend time with her nieces.

DD has been invited to trips with her aunties in the past and I’ve always paid for everything and DD has always had a nice time. But things have been strange with DH’s family for a while now. We moved in June and I made a groupchat of all the siblings (DH doesn’t bother with Facebook) and said “Who would be up for a house warming on X weekend?”. Only of the SIL’s replied and said “If we have nothing else on we’ll come x.” Needless to say housewarming never happened. On weekend me and DD were shopping in the city and DH rang to say a BIL had popped round. I said “Oh we’ll come home then and say hi.” and then DH said “Oh well he’s going in a minute.”. Soon after that some of DH’s siblings went to a festival and we weren’t invited.

DD’s exclusion from the Paris trip though has really twisted the knife in. She loves her aunties and cousins. She’s had an awful time with bullying and exlusion from friends at school (her aunties know this) and so her mental health is already in tatters and so to be excluded by her family as well has destroyed her. I confided in my sister about it damn near tears and my sister has been lovely and has arranged to treat DD on Friday. The thing is, DH doesn’t seem arsed about any of it. He just says “Well we couldn’t afford to pay for DD’s Paris anyway.” Which is completely besides the point and as she’s had such a shit time lately I’d have scraped together the money for her to go and have a nice time with her cousin’s. DH denies it but I think we have done something to upset his family (honestly can’t think what) and they have spoken to him about it but he doesn’t want to tell me. He hates conflict and is a bit spineless so rather than go “Okay I’ll speak to my wife about it and see if we can sort this.” he’d just avoid it and keep us seperate.

I want to get to the bottom of this for DD’s sake more than anything, she keeps saying “Well I must just be bad company so why should they invite me?”. This has really damaged her. Would I be unreasonable to contact a SIL? “DD has seen you have gone away without her and is very upset, she’s already having a hard time as you all know and is devastated that she’s been excluded by her aunts who she adores. I suspect me or DH have done something which has upset you all and you have spoken to DH about it but you know what he’s like and he won’t tell me. Could you please tell me what the issue is so we can sort it and I can tell your heartbroken niece that it’s not her?”.

Tell DD that the aunts didn't invite her because they were worried you couldn't afford it and didn't want to disappoint her.

Then focus on your marriage and financial issues. You don't say why you don't work but I'd def concentrate on getting a part time job and pouring all that money into repayments to MIL

@TitianaTitsling just caught up with thread and I was wondering the same? Abuse of Powers here is Mil advocate is lending her money out. That's just not on, family or not.

So you haven’t reciprocated? The in-laws have invited your DD to join them on trips or outings, but you haven’t done the same for their DDs with the exception of sleepovers when they were much younger.

And then there's the 2k.

From the outside perspective, you are take, take, take and the rest of the family have had enough. They think you're (you and DH) are cheeky fuckers and I suspect they're right.

Firstly, this is why I don't regularly invite people to things. They start to expect to be invited to every single thing every single time. I think it is very rude tbh that your daughter feels so entitled that she expects to go along to everything. At 14 surely she should be mature enough and possess cognitive and emotional intelligence to know that even the bestest of bestest of best friends don't invite you to every single thing. She seems a little spoiled and like she has gotten her way continually, and just expects to be invited automatically and now expects it to just continue. This is not reality and is not a psychologically or emotionally healthy mindset, and you aren't doing your job as a mother by pandering to her sense of entitlement and confronting relatives to FORCE your daughter's way in. Sorry but just who do you think you are to dictate to people that your daughter must be included every.....single.....time. So those family members are not ever allowed to holiday by themselves? You are destroying your daughter's mental health, her resilience, and her ability to be rational. Your behaviour with enabling your daughter is very unhealthy. You are doing her a disservice. I understand bullying (more than I could explain, I was in counselling for years, had PTSD and depression as well as Agoraphobia due to it) and being sensitive. But why have you fostered a sense of entitlement in your daughter to such an extent, that she expects to be invited every....single.....time? You are setting her up for emotional psychological failure in life. I think it is sad to think that some teens can't even put photos up of a trip, without worrying about your daughter having an emotional breakdown. Aren't her cousins entitled to lives of their own??

Regarding the money, they probably knew you couldn't afford the trip and didn't want to ask you as they felt it would make you feel awkward or your DD upset because she couldn't go. I also say that if your husband is taking out large loans like this without even telling you, don't isn't good for your marriage. Secrets like that destroy marriages, nothing especially financial, should be kept from your spouse. I am surprised that you seem more upset that, for once, your daughter wasn't invited on a trip you couldn't afford anyway, than you are that your own husband is taking out large loans and making these decisions behind your back. That would be time to separate territory for me, if not LTB territory. What else is he hiding? Keeping financial decisions from you like this is so much more major than some 14 year old girl's entitlement and selfishness. I'd be more worried about the state of your marriage and what else your husband has been hiding, than I would the girl.

So, you need to see counselling with your husband or at least seek financial counselling/advice, and ask him if there is anything else he is keeping from you, to tell you now or if you find out later, it's over. You may be saddled with a massive debt that sends you bankrupt, all because your husband is taking out loans behind your back and you have no idea what is going on. Nip that in the bud now. And, stop spoiling and mollycoddling your spoiled daughter. I wonder if she has any idea of the value of money, or does she doesn't know or care where the money comes from for her trips and just expects you to pay each and every time? She needs to be told people ARE allowed to have a life away from her, the world doesn't revolve around her, and that there are times in life where she can't afford something she wants, and she needs to understand that and accept it. She can't have everything she wants and be invited to everything. It's worrying that at 14 she does not understand this concept and you need to stop damaging her by spoiling her and indulging her. She will never cope with life as an adult if she has never been told 'no' and is so smothering of people like she appears to be with her cousins.

So he borrowed money. Yet again.

You knew he had borrowed it but looked the other way, so you could claim you didnt know if the shit hit the fan.

You know the family is struggling for money, but only now your dd couldnt go to Paris have you decided to get a part time job?

Personally I would want to see bil and dp together and find our what the fuck is going on.

Bil probably didnt want to lend him the money, again. Given it took so long to pay back before? What story did your dp spin?

No wonder no one was interested in the house warming. Dp borrowed money again, to move and you are wanting to shell out money on a party. I bet he has missed a payment too.

To be honest I would be pissed off if my brother kept having to borrow money for totally normal things like moving, never paid it back when he said he would AND pledged poverty, while his partner didnt work. And then they wo3nd a fair but of money on a get together. If my mother was ill, would be even more annoyed at a party being planned .

Imagine if you had have known about the trip and manage to scrap together the money for dd to go? How bad would that have looked?

Your dd is also old enough to understand that the family doesnt have enough money to send one of you to paris and that there are other financial responsibilities that must come first.

Your dp is a dick. He let her feel shit for the day instead of being upfront. But I also suspect you are one of those partners that know your dp is up to something but turns a blind eye, because it benefits your family. Eventually you have to face up to the truth.

Sort your finances out and stop relying in getting money from mils money.

If I were you I would really worry about what your dp will do with the inheritance, if mil passes away. He cant be trusted at all and you need to face up it.

@SaraNade I think you are being harsh here. OPs DD saw literally all her cousins but two who for good reasons could not be there going on what is a family holiday for the girls. Of course she will feel rejected and think is there a reason they don't see her as family anymore to not be invited on a family trip

Surely you must have had suspicion he borrowed money? Where did you think the money for moving had come from

You say that you have learned that you need to communicate better. What you need to learn is that, sometimes you get upset and jump to conclusions. You thought that you and your DD were being deliberately excluded. It turns out that there was a perfectly rational explanation. Now go and explain to your daughter how your emotions caused you to think the worst and jump to conclusions and how you were wrong. Like your DD, you also thought that you must have done something wrong, but you hadn't. This is an opportunity for you to demonstrate to your DD that emotions effect who you feel and thoughts effect emotions. A great book is the "feeling good handbook" by Dr Robert Burns. It's a great practical CBT based book that gets you to work through examples of situations in your own life and rationalize explanations and stop jumping to worst case scenarios. It seems apparent to me that your daughter is feeding off your feelings too. You, at least,ought to read/work through the book. I don't normally recommend 'self help' books, but this is one of the main ones used by the NHS,The Priory etc and is a series of hands on practical examples to work through.

@SaraNade she’s 14 with anxiety.
She’s been invited to everything but not this.
Naturally she’s going to be upset.
She’s still a kid.
Op there is something else going on that your DP hasn’t told you. I’d insist on talking to the family. I reckon he’s blamed you for something.

Wow people on here are fucking harsh. It's not rude or ridiculous to expect that children within a family setting are treated equally. My ds is not treated equally with a cousin by mil and its upsetting for him and me on his behalf as its heartbreaking to witness.

Op, I'm sorry your dh has lied to you. I suspect the sil's and bil are unhappy about the money being borrowed and are quietly huffing with your dh and by defect you and your daughter also. I suspect the visit from your bil that was cut short was either a discussion about the repayments or bil voicing his discord about the situation and why he scuttled off because he knew it was a secret from you.

Going forward do you want a relationship with these people? If so I would keep up with the invites in the group chat so they can see the effort your making, for example everyone want to come round for a big Sunday dinner including all kids? If it's declined, wait a few weeks and think of something else and invite them again. I'd probably try a handful of times without letting yourself get upset by declines (prepare yourself beforehand for it), if after 3 or 4 consecutive invites they still decline then you could either accept they do not want a relationship with you or call them individually to say that you wish you could spend more time together and is there a reason they don't wish to?

Best of luck and hope your dd feels better about the situation too.

To those above, Yes, I know she is upset because others went. We all know that. The OP has told us. Hence my reply that at 14, she really should understand that you can't be invited to every thing your friends/cousins go on, that is just something a teen who isn't emotional-developmentally delayed understands. The fact that the girl thinks she aught to be invited to everything and can't handle it, at 14, shows that the mother has spoiled and mollycoddled her and has caused this damage (unwittingly) to her. At 14, I knew that sometimes I would be invited, sometimes I might be 1 or 2 of the only ones left out for one reason or another. I knew that and accepted that. I think we all did. This girl though is so developmentally delayed that she doesn't understand this simple concept. Because she's been trained to accept that she will always be invited, to everything. We all know that that is simply not rational. The girl is very emotionally vulnerable right now, but her mother has not given her the emotional skills to cope.

That she at 14, thinks nothing of where the money is coming from and who is paying, just assuming she will go on this trip to Paris, also is very concerning and shows she is used to going on these trips without even thinking about it. It's just poor parenting imo. She has been let down by her parents who have created this mess. How many 14 year olds do you know who automatically assume they will go on an overseas trip, without even wondering how they will pay for it/who will pay for it? Even if her parents could afford it, for a 14 year old to just assume, just like that, that she will be going on these overseas trips - just like that, is just troubling. It seems she is just so used to going on these overseas trips, her first thought was to feel sorry for herself for not being invited, instead of how she would afford it.

I think the 'borrowing' of the money is definitely at the root of things. If the in-laws are aware of having to borrow money to move- am assuming this was a planned move? Why would they ask your DD to go on a trip to Paris? What would that have cost?

@SaraNade so if all the women and girls in your family decided to have a family trip and never asked you or mentioned it to you it would not make you think do they not see me as family?

@SaraNade this was a family trip

@demureandgraceful if I had gone every other time, no, I would not assume I should be invited every single time. And not every woman in the entire family was invited, apparently it was just 2 sisters and their kids. Hence the over-reaction. If the entire family was invited and the girl wasn't, that would be different. But that is not what happened here. No grans, uncles etc. 2 sisters and their kids.

@demureandgraceful No, it wasn't a family trip, if grandma, granddad, uncles, SILs, BILs were not ALL invited, then it was not a family trip. 2 sisters (and their children), does not an entire family trip make.

I'm probably getting all Miss Marple, but doesn't it seem odd that they started not responding about you talking about visits to the ILs recently?

Like perhaps it's perceived that you and DH have been taking advantage of your MIL somehow? Was the loan all above board?

@SaraNade it was all the female family members other then one cousin at uni and one that has a new born.

If BIL's daughter was only invited last week maybe they had a drop out so only had one place to fill, they may not have asked you either because they think that luxury expenses should go toward repaying your MIL or because they thought you couldn't afford it (I'm not clear from your posts if MIL has been repaid). Same with the housewarming, they may resent the idea that you are spending out on drink and food for a party rather than repaying the loan. I really think it would help in looking at resilience counciling/workshops for your daughter, my mum was like you and if I was upset rushed to try and fix the problem for me rather than help me to cope with the dissapointment and it really didn't do me any favours in the long term.

@SaraNade they took one cousin that was a niece through their brother's side but not the other. It does feel like they included all the girls in the family that could go other then OPs DD

This girl though is so developmentally delayed

SaraNade Are you qualified to make such accusations? You are seriously attacking emotionally vulnerable 14 year old. It was girly family trip and that girl was fully entitled to be asked on it.

I am not attacking her, I am stating the truth. If a 14 year old girl is so distraught that she wasn't invited somewhere, that she is beside herself and in tears, that certainly is not normal behaviour for a 14 year old. It just isn't normal behaviour. Yes, she is emotionally vulnerable right now, but that goes beyond this. He reaction is certainly not normal. And no, she is not 'entitled' to be asked at all, see, that is the problem with her being so entitled that her cousins can't take a trip by themselves without the 14 year old having a major emotional breakdown. No one is 'entitled' to be invited on an overseas trip.

Yes, of course it sucks for a child to feel that they are excluded, and if adults have a problem with something other adults have done, it's never okay to take it out on the child.

On the other hand, I really think some of the more recent PPs have made fair points about your management of both your DD's anxiety and her sense of expectation. It's worth considering whether your response might well have exacerbated the situation for her, and whether it might have been much more in your DD's interests to have played it down. DD can't expect invitations to everything other relatives do. And if her aunts have become aware that this is an expectation/sense of entitlement, it may go some way to explaining why those invitations have now dried up. It's unreasonable to expect all the effort to be made from one side. I also agree with PPs that sending the text message to the other aunt was a mistake.

Considering possible other perspectives of the sisters in law. Borrowing money from relatives is one thing, and if my brother borrowed from my mother I'd consider it their business and not mine. If my brother borrowed £2K from a mother with dementia, I'd have a very serious problem with it. This is morally-dubious territory, and I'd waste no conscience in telling him so.

I'm afraid your DH's cagey behaviour over this affair would have my antennae wobbling, OP. In asking this question I don't mean to be offensive - but are you quite sure this is all he's taken from her?

SaraNade It is normal behaviour for 14 year old. And yes, we all read how good you were at managing emotions at 14. You are the only one who is using the word 'entitled'. This is dynamics of this particular family and OP probably knows better whether her daughter should expect an invitation or not.
Money situation is irrelevant in girls eyes, invitation would count. OP could have explained that they could not afford it and the matter would be closed. At the moment she feels totally left out by family members.
And kindness goes a long way, think about it, before you make assumptions about somebody's else's child.

And not every woman in the entire family was invited, apparently it was just 2 sisters and their kids.

No, you missed out the other cousin who went on the trip, a niece of the SILs.

You're not very compassionate, have you also forgotten that DD has been bullied at school too, so she'll be extra sensitive?

You sound like you're enjoying putting the boot in.