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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that males should not be competing against biological females in sports

143 replies

Campervan69 · 08/08/2019 09:33

Another sporting body, this time Australian cricket, now allow anyone born male to self identify as a woman and compete in women's sports.

At the same time new "inclusion rules" say it's a breach for women to refuse to compete with trans athletes, use the wrong pronoun for them or say they're uncomfortable sharing the changing rooms with them.

AIBU to think that this is the beginning of the end for women's sports if allowed to continue?

And how can women fight against this if they are not allowed to speak out?

OP posts:
practicalmagick · 08/08/2019 10:12

@CitadelsofScience Well, a few women do play cricket with men at elite level as said above, but obviously they're not being selected for international teams for a reason.

I agree with people saying YANBU, but if we want to win this argument about sport we have to get familiar with the facts about specific cases. Cricket is an interesting case because the waters have been muddied for a while. I completely agree that making women's cricket effectively mixed sex would massively damage the sport but sex separation is not as clear-cut in cricket as it is in, say, weightlifting, so we have to look at the whole picture. Should women be completely prevented from competing in men's pro teams? I don't know.

NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 08/08/2019 10:13

but sex separation is not as clear-cut in cricket as it is in, say, weightlifting

Oh, it is. It really is!

Blue5238 · 08/08/2019 10:14

'Generally I think YANBU but cricket is a bit of an exception as the physical difference between women and men seems to have less impact there than in other sports. I think it will be interesting to hear what female cricketers think about it.'

You're kidding! Have you seen how fast the fastest female bowlers in the world can bowl? It is way slower than the men

littlbrowndog · 08/08/2019 10:15

YANBU

I guess female cricketers like female athletes may not be able to speak up as could be in their contracts or sponsor ship deals that they can’t speak against their federations

Saw in that article that rugby league in Australia are also now looking to review their inclusive policy. 🤦‍♀️🤷‍♀️

InglouriousBasterd · 08/08/2019 10:15

YANBU at all. It’s fucking appalling.

BlooperReel · 08/08/2019 10:15

Generally I think YANBU but cricket is a bit of an exception as the physical difference between women and men seems to have less impact there than in other sports. I think it will be interesting to hear what female cricketers think about it.

Rubbish I'm afraid, men have a longer reach, and greater muscle density and length, stronger tendons and ligaments too, makes all the difference when bowling the ball. An elite level male cricketer throwing a ball at you full pelt, is an entirely different thing from an elite level female cricketer.

Original poster
Campervan69 · 08/08/2019 10:16

I think the suggestion that the men's should be open but women's always XX females only makes sense.

Then everyone can compete fairly.

OP posts:
SnuggyBuggy · 08/08/2019 10:22

I'm guessing it's less dangerous than a contact sport but that doesn't mean it's ok

practicalmagick · 08/08/2019 10:23

Would you like to test this by standing and facing a ball from Jofra Archer? It'd break your friggin neck if you didn't connect!!!!

Obviously I wouldn't!

All I'm saying is we should listen to female cricketers who have actually played against men on what they think about this (Arran Brindle's opinion would be very interesting - the first woman to score a century in an ECB men's premier league cricket match)

female cricketers aren't going to be able to tell us how they feel about it

That really doesn't mean we should assume we know what they think. The rule is obviously ridiculous and I hope they will speak out anyway.

Daysofpearlyspencer · 08/08/2019 10:24

As from next year's Olympics transwomen who have had no surgery but have had a male puberty are to be allowed to compete in women's events. Check out laurel Hubbard and Rachael McKinnon, it's increasingly common. British gymnastics now permit transforms in girls events I believe. Women and girls will be left with no space of their own

Daysofpearlyspencer · 08/08/2019 10:25

I was massive trans ally until I stumbled onto FWR and boy have my eyes been opened!

CassianAndor · 08/08/2019 10:25

Well, a few women do play cricket with men at elite level as said above, but obviously they're not being selected for international teams for a reason.

no, if you read that poster's post properly you would see that these women are playing top flight international women's cricket and considerably less-than top flight men's.

Whatsername7 · 08/08/2019 10:26

Id like to see sport based on biology not gender. I'd like to see transgenger athletes competing against those with whom they share the same chromosomes. I'd fully support a male to female transwoman competing in the male premier league. We need to move past this notion that long hair, make up and a skirt make you female. Instead, let players dress however they like, wear what they like and call themselves whatever they like. But, they should play against people of the same biology. Call it XX and XY if you want to avoid male and female.

practicalmagick · 08/08/2019 10:27

@NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace

It should be! But historically so far it hasn't been - that's my point. There's been very little consistency on it. This new change will just make that worse.

BinkySodPlop · 08/08/2019 10:27

Martina Navratilova made a documentary about this, after she got flamed by the trans community for suggesting that people who had gone through male puberty had a physical advantage over xx women when competing in sports. It was very interesting, and unsurprisingly had no real answer. The "exception" that they found was in long distance running, where a runner who had matured to an adult male, then started taking female hormones (but pre op), found her speeds reduced by 30% very quickly. The analogy was a big car with smaller engine. This obviously would not be the case with a fully-biological male with no treatment. There's a very good reason doping regs stopped the use of testosterone in all athletes and put max. limits in. The limits are much higher in transwomen than xx women, tho.....

JacquesHammer · 08/08/2019 10:32

YANBU

It’s fucking appalling.

There is literally NO space that belongs to women that men will not try and infiltrate.

ItWentInMyEye · 08/08/2019 10:33

YANBU at all. The Martina Navratilova programme was good.

CitadelsofScience · 08/08/2019 10:34

My husband is a huge cricket fan and watches both men's and women's, I've just informed him of this and he shook his head and tutted at how ludicrous this whole idea of inclusion is.

When he used to play he was a fast bowler and he says it would be downright dangerous to have had him bowling to a woman in bat.

FlaviaAlbia · 08/08/2019 10:34

YANBU!

It's cheating and it will end up with teams filled with men who couldn't compete as men pushing out women. Look at the Iranian women's football team...

The whole point of women's sports is to allow for sex based differences.

NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 08/08/2019 10:36

@practicalmagick

Ah, sorry Blush Yes, I understand now.

Sorry for the somewhat emotive postings. It's a topic close to my heart.

practicalmagick · 08/08/2019 10:36

no, if you read that poster's post properly you would see that these women are playing top flight international women's cricket and considerably less-than top flight men's.

What? That's what I said.

The title of the OP is "AIBU To think that males should not be competing against biological females in sports" - I was pointing out that they already are in league cricket where some women play in men's teams. It's not at international level, but we're talking about significant skill levels here, so cricket is a particularly interesting case.

The OP then clarified she thinks that the suggestion that the men's should be open but women's always XX females only makes sense.

Which I agree makes sense given the system that's already in place in cricket, really.

NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 08/08/2019 10:37

When he used to play he was a fast bowler and he says it would be downright dangerous to have had him bowling to a woman in bat.

And he is absolutely right. 100%. Without a shadow of a doubt.

DonJeer · 08/08/2019 10:41

Obviously YADNBU

But can I say to everyone on this thread that you need to start speaking up, contacting your MP, and organising and giving some sort of voice to this. Make your anger actually worthwhile and count for something!

OldCrone · 08/08/2019 10:41

The "exception" that they found was in long distance running, where a runner who had matured to an adult male, then started taking female hormones (but pre op), found her speeds reduced by 30% very quickly.

That's not really proof though, is it? If they wanted to 'prove' that their speeds were slower, they could just run more slowly.

Original poster
Campervan69 · 08/08/2019 10:43

Sorry I should have clarified in my opening post that males should not be competing against females in WOMEN's sports

Women's sports should be reserved for those born biologically female only. Men's sports could be an open category as I think most men's sports already are?

OP posts:
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