To think it's mean when people on here proclaim that gaving children isn't a right?

[malificent7]

Normally uttered by comfortably off fertile people with about 3 children and aimed sometimes sneeringly at less well off women ..or women with difficult circumstances.
Aibu to think that having children may not be a right but it is a biological imperative for many; like most animals we are designed to reproduce.
Btw...i am very happy with my 1 and only dd so this is not to do with me.

Having children even!

In the context of surrogacy it has a place but otherwise it can be a pretty unhelpful thing to say.

Normally uttered by comfortably off fertile people with about 3 children and aimed sometimes sneeringly at less well off women.

Bull crap.

It is insensitive to say it to someone who struggles but having children is not a right. I struggle with IVF being available on the NHS.

As for the ‘biological imperative’, that’s insensitive to women who choose not to have children? I was ambivalent about having a child right up to finding out that I was pregnant and since DD’s birth some people seem confused when I say that being done at one was a conscious decision. I like the idea of having more far more than the probable reality.

I've seen a lot of childless by choice people say it. I mean it's convenient I suppose, you've decided yourself you don't want them, so then if you portray the decision to have children as a lifestyle choice on a par with I don't know, going ice climbing or learning Japanese, then you can feign ignorance as to why society should bear some of the costs of raising children. I suspect that some of them are not as happy about being child-free as they make out.

I personally find it hurtful. We struggled to have children and needed ivf. We are so thankful it worked and do everything possible to make our twins’s lives happy ones! So when a couple of people (all of whom had children) said it to me I thought it was hurtful.

It's not 'mean' it's a fact.

And we're not 'designed' at all. We're biological accidents.

Yanbu.
It's the most natural urge in the world and very strong for some people.

It’s factual though, isn’t it? You have no right to give birth to children or to have the chance to fall pregnant. In much the same way, I have a biological imperative that compels me to sleep most of the morning but have no right to do so. More trivial certainly but equally not a right.

I think anyone who got to have the number of children they wanted (myself included) really shouldn’t get to comment on whether someone else should be given that opportunity.

No, it’s not a “right”, but for those who want children they can’t have, it is the most important thing in the world. PP is right that “biological imperative” may be a bit strong, but I can’t think of a better description - a large number of human beings have an inbuilt desire to reproduce. Not all, by any stretch, but to feel that desire is also an entirely natural thing and for someone to be denied that is cruel, just as it would be for those who don’t want children to be forced to do so.

Well I mean, it's not a right is it? Some people are lucky enough to be able to reproduce others are not. It's not necessarily fair but that's how it is.

I do wonder if people who say that children aren't a right are thinking about the long term consequences for society if we price out 85%+ of women from having a child or two. It would probably involve much more immigration (and people would complain about money being sent home for their families and a complete change of the ethnicity of the UK) or a collapse in society as there will be no young people taking on jobs when people retire.

It's like saying that people have a right to sex...

You get lucky- same with having kids.

I have one, would love another. Probably won't happen. I still don't think it's my 'right'. I thank my LUCKY stars every day that I have DS.

I see no reason those who have the children they would wish to can’t comment in a general way. It may not always be in good taste to but if we were only to comment on what we have direct personal experience of, conversations would run dry pretty quickly and the public would have no input into policy at any level bar a select few who, unless remarkably selfless, would influence policy towards their own ends. A balanced and productive debate has input from all sides.

Although it is sensible to think about the financial impact each child will have, there are a few very condescending people out there who seem to suggest that if you are on a low income you shouldn’t have any children at all or think you should be able to plan for any circumstance.

As for those who say this about couples that can’t concieve, that’s just plain rude. I hurts like hell to want to be a mother when you can’t. It’s not just a baby they can’t have it’s a child, teenager, adult etc and they are missing out all the milestones that go with it.

YANBU. Of course it’s not a right, but neither is it the equivalent of choosing between semi-skimmed and 1% fat. People on here like the term “lifestyle choice” but I don’t really know what they’re trying to imply.

It’s only because of IVF that people think it is a right. For most of human history and for most in the world who can’t access or afford it - if you’re not conceiving naturally then you’re out of luck.

@plunkplunkfizz sorry, I didn’t mean as part of debate, I meant no right to comment personally to someone who’s going though it, which is how I interpreted the OPs post.

It really isn't a right. I'm not entirely sure what would happen if it was - if someone gave you an STI that made you infertile, would you be able to take them to court for having infringed on your reproductive rights?

I just looked it up.

Article 12: Right to marriage
Men and women of marriageable age shall have the right to marry and to found a family, according to national laws governing the exercise of this right.

It doesn't actually specify that the right is to have your biological children.

I do wonder if people who say that children aren't a right are thinking about the long term consequences for society if we price out 85%+ of women from having a child or two.

How would this happen? We are a long way away from this, in this country the majority do have children.

To answer the OP, I think it's perhaps true but it could be hurtful for some people and there's not much to be gained from saying it.

"Having children isn't a right" sounds like it's a simple statement of fact (in the same way as "pregnancy isn't an illness") but it's also a moral judgement about what should be a right. A right is entitlement enshrined in law, we make a decision as a society about what we want to guarantee people as rights. Saying that children aren't a right isn't an argument against e.g. higher benefits for familiar or IVF on the NHS, it's just a statement that, as now, we don't have anything written down that guarantees that help. It doesn't close down the discussion as decisively as the people who say it seem to think.

There is extensive caselaw to say “found a family” does not mean have a child. It means to build and maintain family relationships without undue or unjustified interference from the state. Children which exist should not be arbitrarily removed lest it breach the right to found family relationships with them. It does not give rise to any rights in relation to the creation of children in and of itself except in so far as compulsory medical treatment to remove opportunities to have children may represent a breach.

Facts are sometimes upsetting but that doesn't make them wrong. If you made "having children" a right, you could end up with all sorts of very undesirable circumstances to bring children into. Eg economic surrogacy. They are a gift, having a child is not a right that society is obliged to help me attain.

I fail to see how the biological imperative argument insults child free by choice. Child free by choice is also a perfectly valid choice and surely to be celebrated if it is a choice.

Unfortunately it is a right a lot of people shouldn’t have! Six kids already, no money, on benefits, kids dirty and not fed properly, Let’s have another!! Those are the ones that are the problem.

Whilst it may be factually accurate, it’s still incredibly cruel to tell someone struggling with infertility that they have no ‘right’ to have a child.

Just because something is technically true doesn’t mean that we can’t be sensitive to the impact our words have on others.