To think it's mean when people on here proclaim that gaving children isn't a right?

[malificent7]

Normally uttered by comfortably off fertile people with about 3 children and aimed sometimes sneeringly at less well off women ..or women with difficult circumstances.
Aibu to think that having children may not be a right but it is a biological imperative for many; like most animals we are designed to reproduce.
Btw...i am very happy with my 1 and only dd so this is not to do with me.

It isn't so much a right but a drive for lots of people they have this overwhelming urge to be a parent which is just there. I've known many men who have this too but obviously they can't achieve this without a partner like women could with sperm donation etc. I have one son who I am happy with I have no desire for any more. My husband and I adopted our son but for me it was about an urge to nurture and care and have a family rather than a biological urge to reproduce. Every circumstances is different some people want children and cant others dont want them then end up pregnant and suprised that they actually quite like the idea. Others go through treatment after treatment and get nowhere others just dont want them at all. Reproduction is worshipped in our society almost like a person cant be fulfilled by other things such as their friends, family or work. It's just nobody elses business really but your own.

I fail to see how the biological imperative argument insults child free by choice.

You really can’t see how that’s often used as a stick to beat women who don’t want children? You can’t possibly imagine how the tone or context are twisted to imply these women are somehow lacking, not biologically normal?

Equally it can be twisted and given context to imply women with children are mindless breeders but that seems to happen far, far less often.

Imperative implies a lack of choice though?

Some people want kids, some don't. Some can and some can't. Nobody has a right to have children. Nobody should be judged for their choices- other than those who are lucky enough to have kids and then neglect or abuse them.

What more is there to say on the matter?

I’ve never really seen anyone on mn say it’s not a right, if anything I’d say mn makes out infertility is the worst thing anyone could ever go through ever

I think, with regards to surrogacy, it's the logical starting point to talk about the troubling ethics around it.

It smarts a bit when fertile women say that IVF shouldn’t be available on the NHS. Yes I’m sure you think that way because your ability to have children has never been impeded or tested so you don’t understand the desperation some infertile women feel about having a baby. It’s one single round. Hardly going to break the bank.

My view is that there are a lot of people who lack empathy. They think because they had no trouble having children that this is a fair position to take. If the shoe was on the other foot and they understood the pain of infertility, no doubt, they would not take such a self centred approach. Empathy is learned in a lot of cases and it is learned the hard way, through experiencing the highs and lows of life. I've given up on expecting it from most people. It is amazing though to see how they change, when life deals them the hard cards.

I definitely think that IVF and other fertility treatments should be available on the NHS. It's a biological function that is failing- of course it should be treated.

Hardly going to break the bank.

But by no means an insignificant cost either.

It’s one single round.

One round often isn’t enough, and often the first cycle brings masses of useful information for the next so it’s more likely to be successful. As far as I remember, nice recommends at least three cycles.

Is having sex a biological imperative? All those ‘incel’ men would like to claim a ‘right’ to sex.

YABU children are not a right, and it isn't 'mean' to say so because some people struggle to conceive. If it's such a strong 'biological imperative' then a lot more women would be having children much younger and with less fertility issues, but there are more first time mums over 40 than under 20 now.

Well of course it isn't a right as it is impossible to ensure that everyone has the number of children that they would like. It is though a mean spirited and dismissive argument.
If someone argues against fertility treatment on the grounds of cost or risks etc, even though I might not agree with them, they are at least 'reasonable' arguments in my book whereas if all someone can say is "It is not a right" I mark them down as a certain type of person.

It’s not a ‘right’ as such but I agree OP those who conceived easily showing no empathy to those struggling is incredibly hurtful. Infertility is a cruel hand to be dealt and the fact that there is a treatment often out of financial reach makes it so much harder.

It's a biological function that is failing- of course it should be treated

That's how I feel. The NHS does e.g. surgery if you tear your ACL even though the majority of people with ACL tears can walk perfectly well, they just can't play sports with a lot of twisting like football and skiing. Do we really, as a society, believe that we should preserve a middle aged bloke's ability to go skiing but if a woman wants to have children and help, that's too trivial a difference in life quality for us to get involved? (And I say this as someone whose other half tore his ACL skiing last winter and had reconstructive surgery!)

If there's one thing i hate more than anything else about life in the 20th century, it's the way some people have decided objective facts are in some way targetting them personally in order to hurt their feelings.

"Sex is not a human right"

"Women are adult human females".

"Not everyone will be able to reproduce".

"American presidents are elected to serve every US citizen and preserve their right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

Actually if you look at the list of human rights formed by the United Nations Humam Rights Council one of the first ones is the right to have a family.

21st century even**

My time machine works

I think you'll find that's the right to family life. And families come in all shapes and sizes - many without children.

@rufflecrow

Nope. Its number 16. Adults have the right to get married and have a family if they want to. It applies to both and women.
And who the hell is someone to tell someone else they dont have a right to have kids?

*men and women

I personally don’t think it is a right but a desire, a choice. What did they do before IVF or in countries where IVF isn’t readily available?

I also think IVF should only be available through the NHS for totally childless couples, not for couples with children already or from previous relationships

I suspect that some of them are not as happy about being child-free as they make out

There are plenty of parents who are not as happy about being parents as they make out too, toomuchtooold

I wouldn't say it in real life, but it don't believe people have a right to have children, or indeed to marry.

I have friends who had several rounds of IVF. They all failed, by which time they were too old to adopt. How does talking about having a right to a child help them?

I have friends and relatives who are not married because they have never found anyone they wanted to marry who also wanted to marry them. How are they supposed to be exercise their right?

I'm all for people having the right to try to have children, and having the freedom to marry, but I don't think the concept of rights is helpful in this context.

@plunkplunkfizz

*I fail to see how the biological imperative argument insults child free by choice.

You really can’t see how that’s often used as a stick to beat women who don’t want children? You can’t possibly imagine how the tone or context are twisted to imply these women are somehow lacking, not biologically normal.*

^This.

I love children. I have biological urges to have them. I’m married and have a comfortable home and lifestyle, and as far as I am aware, am able to conceive. However, my husband and I have made a personal choice not to have any of our own.

I’m a Primary teacher. The number of people who have criticised me to my face because; ‘imagine being a teacher and not wanting kids, that’s weird!’ Is unreal. It suggests that there is something wrong with me.

I work all day with families who have stretched themselves beyond their comfortable means, and lead quite difficult lives because they have children that they were ill prepared for. I’m not judging them, but I do think that suggesting that having children is a right or an imperative, encourages people to blindly do something that may not be the right choice for them. Having children should be a very carefully considered decision for those that are able to conceive. It shouldn’t be seen as something which everyone just does when they get to a certain age.

I haven’t got any issue with people who have trouble conceiving being assisted by the NHS.