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AIBU?

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Original poster

To think it's mean when people on here proclaim that gaving children isn't a right?

209 replies

malificent7 · 07/08/2019 06:09

Normally uttered by comfortably off fertile people with about 3 children and aimed sometimes sneeringly at less well off women ..or women with difficult circumstances.
Aibu to think that having children may not be a right but it is a biological imperative for many; like most animals we are designed to reproduce.
Btw...i am very happy with my 1 and only dd so this is not to do with me.

OP posts:
IAskTooManyQuestions · 07/08/2019 08:36

Actually if you look at the list of human rights formed by the United Nations Humam Rights Council one of the first ones is the right to have a family.

It is the right to a family life, which may or may not include children.

And if children were 'a right' - we wouldnt have adoption and foster care and social services etc, we'd leave the poor bairns in what ever environment they were in to begin with.

cdtaylornats · 07/08/2019 08:37

Is it right to waste scarce medical resources on IVF when adoptees are available?

SnuggyBuggy · 07/08/2019 08:37

It's a bit like saying you have the right be cured of cancer. I mean the right to appropriate treatment maybe but how can you codify the right to an uncertain outcome?

AmIRightOrAMeringue · 07/08/2019 08:39

It isn't a 'right' in the sense it's not enshrined in legislation or anything. Most people have the right to try for a child but not the right to have one or to fertility treatment if they have issues, it's not a basic human right or anything.

But that doesnt mean I disagree with some IVF being available on the NHS (although with funding cuts, if a choice had to be made between fertility treatments and live saving or prolonging treatment I think most people would pick the latter)

And I also dont think it's ever a helpful comment to make especially to someone going through fertility issues. As they already know it's not a right otherwise they would have unlimited free treatment

Honeyroar · 07/08/2019 08:43

I think it's a privilege not a right. I couldn't have children. I would have loved one. It's something that's upset me a lot over the years. However I would rather NHS money went on treating someone with cancer, for example. It does make me feel a failure as a female when people say "we're designed to reproduce".

jennymanara · 07/08/2019 08:45

I also have an issue with the biological imperative argument. Because it is a biological imperative for the species of humans, it is not for individuals.

Sleepyblueocean · 07/08/2019 08:46

"Is it right to waste scarce medical resources on IVF when adoptees are available?"

You could apply that to anyone wanting their own biological child. Why waste money on pregnancy and birth if there are children already born available for adoption?

Somerford · 07/08/2019 08:48

I think everyone does have the right to have children, nobody should be able to stop you if you are willing and able. Crack on. It isn't your right to foist the cost of it upon anyone else though and the state shouldn't confiscate resources from others or coerce anyone into providing their labour in order to facilitate it.

Oddbins · 07/08/2019 08:50

I'm not sure I agree with IVF being funded on the NHS. My heart aches for the women who are infertile but it's expensive and often leads to a lot of issues that are not immediately apparent.

There is a high correlation between IVF and SEN I'm not sure that's very well known. It means bringing a child into the world that has a greater risk of being born premature too.

ChardonnaysPrettySister · 07/08/2019 08:51

I would never say this to someone’s face, because it’s not kind.

Here it’s up for discussion in AIBU, so it’s ok to express an opinion.

QueenoftheBiscuitTin · 07/08/2019 08:52

It's a privilege, not a right.

jennymanara · 07/08/2019 08:55

somerford So if you are a spice addict the state should respect your right to have kids and not intervene when your baby is born?

Sleepyblueocean · 07/08/2019 08:55

The correlation is largely due to twin pregnancies being more likely which is why one embryo transfer is now the the general rule with younger women. It is also more likely if the woman is older but that is because of age not ivf.

Lifecraft · 07/08/2019 08:57

like most animals we are designed to reproduce

Utter rubbish. Like ALL living things, we were NOT designed.

Someone said upthread that just because facts are hurtful, doesn't make them wrong. That's spot on.

Having children isn't a right, it's a privilege for those who are fortunate enough. That's a simple fact. It my be hurtful, but facts don't care about our feelings or sensitivities.

SaveTheTupperware · 07/08/2019 09:01

It really fucking annoys me too OP.

Obviously it isn't a right but it's an unnecessarily insensitive thing to say to someone struggling with fertility. I've been near ready to kill myself of fertility struggles in the past and it does piss me off when posters just go 'its luck soz' shrug... Usually always whilst sitting next to their own children who they likely didn't have problem conceiving.

I also think the NHS argument is shitty as well. There are many things available to us in this day and age which aren't a right. Is it a right for a smoker to damage their own bodies for years and then have cancer treatment on the NHS? Is it a right for an obese person to cause that themselves and then have weight treatment on the NHS? We help with a vast variety of things that aren't a 'right' because we can! And why would we want someone to suffer when we can do something? Infertility isn't even self inflicted like the above examples but no body seems to begrudge those quite as much.

I for one would much rather my tax money go towards helping a couple achieve having a single child. To be honest, I'd probably end up costing the same through depression medication, counselling, GP visits, hospital appointments etc...

It isn't a right now but people often dismiss the huge impact on people's lives it can have. And I've seen before posters skipping with glee to an infertility thread to tell the OP 'its not a right!!'. It's vile.

ThighThighOfthigh · 07/08/2019 09:04

Suggesting adoption to people unable to have biological children always comes up.

I have biological children but i know I would not have considered adoption if i had been unable to reproduce. I would want my own biological child - just like others without a medical problem.

jennymanara · 07/08/2019 09:05

Should men have a right to have children then? Does that mean women should give birth to kids so that men can exercise that right?

Helix1244 · 07/08/2019 09:06

Ok yes techically no 'right to a child' but as op is saying it is used mainly for those with infertility.
Some of the reasons for infertility
Pcos
Hypothyroidism
CF genes for men
Age
Obesity
Previous tubal pregnancies
Endo
POF
Short LP?

Several are medical, some can be helped with medication. Some with clomid.
Actually what often cannot be fixed without ivf is MF so it is men who wouldnt get to be biological fathers because i assume you would be able to use iui with donor sperm.

I do think ivf should be funded but think 'there are no rights without responsibilities' and imo one of those is to start ttc earlier. So at a minimum by 35 but i would probably say by 30. Because you can take 2-3y ttc naturally then wait for appts etc. I just dont think we should be funding treatment because people are now leaving ttc too late (by choice). Ivf is a hard process and actually we dont fully know the full effects on the dc by being created by ivf/icsi etc as they are not old people yet.

jennymanara · 07/08/2019 09:07

@SaveTheTupperware Going down the "self inflicted" route is a shitty thing to do. Childbirth is "self inflicted" but the NHS rightly pays for that. High risk pregnancies because women are obese is "self inflicted" but the NHS rightly pays for that.
We should not even entertain the idea that there are undeserving and deserving users of the NHS.

TapasForTwo · 07/08/2019 09:07

"Having children isn't a right, it's a privilege for those who are fortunate enough. That's a simple fact. It my be hurtful, but facts don't care about our feelings or sensitivities."

I agree. Having infertility problems myself, and taking 17 years to produce DD, I still maintain that no-one has a right to have children. It's not a basic human right according to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but I feel that people have a right to choose to have children though.

SaveTheTupperware · 07/08/2019 09:08

Should men have a right to have children then? Does that mean women should give birth to kids so that men can exercise that right?

No but that's just being purposefully argumentative isn't it?

A couple who wants children but can't because of fertility issues, I believe, should have access to the help that the NHS can offer. Just like many many many people do.

And they should be able to do so without the judgement of more fortunate people behind their keyboards.

SaveTheTupperware · 07/08/2019 09:10

We should not even entertain the idea that there are undeserving and deserving users of the NHS

So why are people so quick to tell people that they shouldn't be allowed IVF? Infertility isn't self inflicted. It isn't a choice. Why are people so happy to let people like that suffer because it's 'not a right' but don't bat an eyelid at the huge amount of people using the NHS for other things?

RuffleCrow · 07/08/2019 09:13

If they want to @getmeacupoftea - having the freedom to choose do something doesn't necessarily mean it must happen by law. Going back to my example of the US - citizens have the right to pursue happiness. That doesn't mean their rights have been infringed every time they feel sad. Goodness me, some basic legal training would help you. Sadly that's not a human right either.

ThighThighOfthigh · 07/08/2019 09:17

The NHS is there for all of us, let's not go down the self inflicted route. We should pay more tax, have a workable minimum wage so that people can pay more tax. There is the money for the NHS, it's just being spent on other things.

HeyMonkey · 07/08/2019 09:19

@Floopily Completely agree.

I also agree that it's a privilege not a right, but agree with OP in the sense that it's an unkind thing to say to someone unable to have children.