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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think it's mean when people on here proclaim that gaving children isn't a right?

209 replies

malificent7 · 07/08/2019 06:09

Normally uttered by comfortably off fertile people with about 3 children and aimed sometimes sneeringly at less well off women ..or women with difficult circumstances.
Aibu to think that having children may not be a right but it is a biological imperative for many; like most animals we are designed to reproduce.
Btw...i am very happy with my 1 and only dd so this is not to do with me.

OP posts:
SnuggyBuggy · 07/08/2019 14:38

Christmas leave already? It's only August Grin

ShatnersWig · 07/08/2019 14:39

Shatners you cant need them otherwise you would be getting them

Fuck off. Seriously, fuck off. You think I'm making this shit up? How fucking dare you.

SaveTheTupperware · 07/08/2019 14:44

But I think it's ridiculous to claim that you have the same sort of, let's say moral right? - to time off as a childfree adult

I think you have a 'moral right' not to expect other people to pick up the slack because you chose to have kids.

If you don't want to spend a Christmas away from your kids, work in an office that's shut over Christmas. It's no one elses responsibility but yours.

SaveTheTupperware · 07/08/2019 14:47

And I think it's a poor excuse that 'it will ruin little Johnny's Christmas if I can't have the day off'. Like I said, it was a fact of life for me that my dad wasn't always about on Christmas morning, wasn't a huge deal. He chose that job, he chose to have a child knowing that would sometimes be the case that he couldn't have holidays off. He didn't expect his childless colleagues to work every Christmas because he made those choices.

Jsmith99 · 07/08/2019 14:53

Having children is not a right. In developed societies in the 21st century, it is a lifestyle choice. It is a perfectly valid lifestyle choice, and one which most people opt to make, but it is no more or less valid than the choice not to have children. I am very happily child free by choice, which means I genuinely don’t see it as being any different than choosing whether or not to have a pet.

Of course, some people are unable to make that choice due to infertility which is sad for them, and it is right that society should help them by offering them some degree of medical intervention.

openthedoor · 07/08/2019 15:05

Haven't RTFT but intend to when I get the chance.

This touches a nerve. I'm agonising over what to do and it's possibly too late as I'm early 40s.

Desperately wanted to be a mum, always wanted it. Never met the right person and have struggled with heath so I was on a low income. At 35 I had tests (privately) and was told I had fertility problems. I had to decide whether to spend all my savings on a sperm donor and fertility treatment (felt too risky having sex with strangers) with a low chance if success. I knew if I did succeed, I'd then have to rely on benefits for housing, money. I reluctantly decided not to try.

I deeply regret not trying and I'm sort of trying now. Stuck with a violent partner because council won't house me without children. It's so painful being childless and to then face how worthless you're seen by society.

Helix1244 · 07/08/2019 15:18

No i dont think you are making it up. But there is a difference between need now (or you will drop dead i.e ventolin etc) and preventative medicine. Or things that may make you feel better eg thyroxine for people with 'borderline' levels.
The nhs is in a pretty bad state. So them not choosing prevention is not surprising.
But that has been the case even when i was a teenager.
Eg going to gp about irregular periods. No mention about if they dont become regular it could be pcos so fertility issues etc. Blood sugar issues (increased heart attack risk etc). Once this was diagnosed even then the metformin was only for pregnancy etc. Same with thyroid issues. And for that they actively say that you need tsh of 5 or 10 for treatment and yet for fertility it should be 1.
It is a case of good enough rather than best for patient.
The patient would be offered metformin i expect after their first heart attack.

tequilasunrises · 07/08/2019 15:18

I agree with the OP.

I bet the ‘children aren’t a right brigade’ would be less smug if the NHS removed free access to all maternity/family planning services apart from abortion and contraception would they?

Why not impose an mandatory ‘maternity’ level of insurance to cover scans, midwives, tests, the birth etc? It could be like a student loan type arrangement.

Can’t see anyone being okay with that despite children not being a right though...

IVF is NOT what is crippling the NHS.

SnuggyBuggy · 07/08/2019 15:38

The effect of IVF on overpopulation is also heavily exaggerated

OnlyFoolsnMothers · 07/08/2019 15:52

If you don't want to spend a Christmas away from your kids, work in an office that's shut over Christmas. It's no one elses responsibility but yours

what a ridiculous statement - so no parents to work in the NHS, the police force the fire service?? Annual leave is a first come first serve but equally if you could accommodate your work colleagues, give and take is the way forward.

ScreamingValenta · 07/08/2019 16:17

I bet the ‘children aren’t a right brigade’ would be less smug if the NHS removed free access to all maternity/family planning services apart from abortion and contraception would they?

Why not impose an mandatory ‘maternity’ level of insurance to cover scans, midwives, tests, the birth etc? It could be like a student loan type arrangement.

Can’t see anyone being okay with that despite children not being a right though...

As someone who is childfree by choice, none of those would affect me at all!

However, I don't think there's really a link between believing children are not a right, and thinking free NHS maternity services should be scrapped. If you start removing every free NHS service that could be needed due to a choice someone has made, you'd never stop. Ski-ing accident - your choice to ski, not a right. Car accident - your choice to drive, not a right ...

Once you eliminate medical procedures that are needed to save a life, everything else comes down to improving quality of life, and it's a highly subjective and emotive subject - which quality-of-life enhancing procedures are more needed/worthwhile than others? You could argue forever without reaching a consensus.

IcedPurple · 07/08/2019 16:19

In fact it was one of the reasons why many British people who require surrogacy prefer countries that offer commercial surrogacy instead.

Nobody 'requires' surrogacy and nobody ever will.

And if we're speaking of 'rights', absolutely nobody has the right to purchase a baby. Commercial surrogacy is abhorrent.

tequilasunrises · 07/08/2019 16:20

@ScreamingValenta yep that was what I was trying to get at Grin

Whatisinaname1 · 07/08/2019 16:58

ShatnersWig what is the private cost of your drugs? It makes no sense for you not to be prescribed them so when you said £6 a year for prevention I wondered if the low cost has them thinking the patient can pay and that being the reason they wont prescribe, whereas if it was £600 they might as you may not afford. Its a shit decision either way.

Kids are a privilege. I know at least 2 people who easily had them that don't deserve that privilege (or to call themselves a parent). Telling someone ttc and struggling it's not a right sounds extremely rude though and unkind. If they dont agree with ivf anc they are asked about it that's their opinion (though there's ways to say things) but most of the time ive seen it said after someone is ttc for a long time, miscarriage and realisation of infertility.

If my friend was struggling ttc which 3 were, and i said 'well it's not a right' when they told me how stressed or sad they were then frankly I'm a cunt.

Standandwait · 07/08/2019 18:34

Oh, here we go again. Of course it's not technically a right to have children. How can it be, when nothing, even extreme levels of IVF, can guarantee one? But it IS a right (or entitlement, to be technical) to be treated equally by the government that runs the country.

That means that if you have a medical problem and the government creates an NHS specifically designed to treat medical problems, you DO have a right to NHS treatment for your infertility. Naturally, this can get dicey -- if you can't have children because you're gay, it will go to whether you feel being gay is a choice or a biological fact, etc etc.

You do not have a natural right to walk, in the sense that many people spend their lives in wheelchairs and we don't have the medical ability yet to fix them all. Does that mean if your leg is broken it shouldn't be set in the NHS?

You don't have a right to live forever. Does that mean if you get cancer at 22 you shouldn't be treated on the NHS?

The NHS cannot cover everything. And there are ways to think about rationing: eg.

  • whether a problem is cheap to fix. People go on about how expensive infertility is, but Clomid costs pennies, and even IVF is much cheaper than a broken leg, even three rounds, than a broken leg, because it doesn't involve a hospital stay.
  • whether a problem is self-inflicted. But of course, we do cover smoking-related lung cancer, obesity-related heart attacks and diabetes, skiing injuries etc.
  • whether there's a medical problem, a failure of normal functions, involved. But then why are we covering birth control and childbirth (getting pregnant is normal; the solution is choosing not to have sex, right?)
-whether the public benefits from spending its money this way. Do we all agree we'd prefer not to have to walk by old ladies dying in the streets? That it might bring in more tax to pay for cataract surgery than to let people with minimal eyesight fall down the stairs and fix their broken hips on the NHS? That perhaps society needs at least some births to keep the pyramid going? This is complicated.
  • finally, how it relates to quality of life. Believe it or not, this is measured in many national health services and philosophical systems, looking at questions like how much difference treatment makes, how much more life the patient has to live, etc etc. Again, complicated. I'm not going there, personally!

What we shouldn't be doing is rationing in the NHS based on whether we ourselves need the help being paid for. It's far more ethical that everybody SHOULD pay 5 p or £5 more in that case, or else you're saying you don't believe in a taxpayer-funded healthcare service at all and everyone should pay for their own treatment. In which case the whole basis of all insurance, private or state, is undermined. And in which case, feel free to move to the US and try their HMOs, which in my experience are far worse than the NHS for bureaucracy and rationing, or try, maybe, one of those third-world countries where they can't even afford to build roads?

Skittlenommer · 07/08/2019 18:36

Whether it is a right to have children or not it looks bloody awful and I can’t for the life of me work out why anybody would optionally become a parent! I’d genuinely rather die!

SaveTheTupperware · 07/08/2019 18:55

what a ridiculous statement - so no parents to work in the NHS, the police force the fire service?

Maybe read what I actually said? If you never want to spend a Christmas away from your child maybe those sorts of jobs aren't for you given that it's a pretty standard assumption that you will at some point be expected to work over the holidays. It isn't fair to expect everyone else to cover you every year because you chose to have kids.

If I want to do a colleague a favour one year sure but I'm not going to be guilt tripped into doing it every year. Why should I?

Nextphonewontbesamsung · 07/08/2019 18:57

@Skittlenommer - perhaps a parenting website isn't your natural home then?

SaveTheTupperware · 07/08/2019 18:59

My dad didn't join the police and then say 'oh but by the way I can't work any holidays or night shifts or bank holidays or birthdays or Christmases etc etc because I have a child' because shitty shift patterns and working when everyone else is off is standard in that line of work. It's completely entitled to go into a job like that knowing full well what may be expected in terms of working hours/ days but expect privileges over your colleagues because you've reproduced and they haven't.

IcedPurple · 07/08/2019 19:09

That means that if you have a medical problem and the government creates an NHS specifically designed to treat medical problems, you DO have a right to NHS treatment for your infertility.

Infertility can't be 'treated' though. Even IVF, the 'best' form of assisted conception, is ineffective at least twice as often as it is effective.

Given that the health service is under great - and increasing - financial pressure, it's perfectly reasonable to ask if 'treatments' for non-life threatening conditions which have an extremely high failure rate should be funded. Those kind of calculations are made all the time, and many treatments are not funded precisely because the cost is considered too great, given the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of the treatment.

Nobody has a 'right' to any particular publically funded service, especially for a non life treatening condition.

ScreamingValenta · 07/08/2019 19:16

Nextphonewontbesamsung Surely you have noticed the many threads and, indeed, topics on MN that have nothing to do with parenting? There are many childfree-by-choice posters on here.

Holidayrec · 07/08/2019 19:34

YANBU.

I haven't RTFT but I think fertility treatments should be standard as normal health care, just as birth control is. In essence all fertility treatments do is try to repair or medicinally care for reproductive organs so they can do their natural function. I say this even though I have children.

IcedPurple · 07/08/2019 19:47

In essence all fertility treatments do is try to repair or medicinally care for reproductive organs so they can do their natural function

Not really, at least not in the case of IVF. It doesn't - and can't - tackle the causes of infertility, just try to find a way around them. A couple who succesfully have a child via IVF will be in no better position to have another child than they were before the 'treatment'. If they do wish to have another child, they'll very likely have to use IVF again.

Skittlenommer · 07/08/2019 19:55

@Skittlenommer - perhaps a parenting website isn't your natural home then?

Lots of topics are discussed here! It’s not all about kids, thank goodness!

anothernotherone · 07/08/2019 20:20

tequilasunrises the rights of the child and the best interests of society as a whole are served by universal maternity care free at the point of use though. It's not done because individual adults want it, but because already conceived potential babies have better long term outcomes on average if it's provided.

Nothing against IVF with the parents' own eggs/ sperm and womb but the best interests of the child must outweigh wants of adults - and free universal maternity provision is also in the best interests of the child, it's not provided because individual adults want it.

The preventative care argument is interesting because prevention is almost invariably cheaper than treating advanced disease and complications of failure to treat early.