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AIBU?

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Original poster

To suggest that safeguarding should be paramount when dealing with children?

132 replies

KatieAlcock · 05/08/2019 15:02

Because it was on these grounds that I was expelled from Girlguiding.

My story was in the Mail on Sunday yesterday and in the Telegraph today.

I'm taking them to court over my dismissal - they investigated me for talking about their policies on social media, but ultimately decided that I was OK to talk to a small group of people about the ins and outs of GG policy.

But they also decided that it is NOT OK for a leader to put safeguarding above policies - they specifically state trans policies, but frankly, wouldn't you rather your girl's Brownie leader put safeguarding ahead of any policy?

Also, AIBU to say that Mumnetters and other women are INCREDIBLY generous and helpful and that I've now managed to achieve something with their help? But that I'm not supposed to say what I've achieved? Or that I still need help?

OP posts:
beccarocksbaby · 05/08/2019 19:25

I feel very protective towards children in my care, and "no secrets" is safeguarding 101.

The fact that you think no secrets is essential to safeguarding shows you don't have much depth of understanding of safeguarding or appropriate information sharing.

Would you disclose health conditions to safeguard others? If a child on your trip had HIV for instance. Or would that be a secret staff could keep to protect that child's privacy and dignity?

beccarocksbaby · 05/08/2019 19:29

Can I ask a genuine question. Why are women so worried about others who happen to have other junk but identify as a woman and want to live as a woman?

They want to be part of the safe space not threaten it.

I should say in the majority because of course someone will say not everyone will have appropriate motives but guess what, nor do people with vaginas.

MmmBlowholes · 05/08/2019 19:33

Well said @beccarocksbaby I've never known anything like it. It's as though a select group just go on and on about it as though it's their life's work.

titchy · 05/08/2019 20:05

My son recently went on a school residential. It was mixed sex.

And before he went you knew it was mixed sex, and you also knew that boys would be sleeping and showering separately to girls. Your point...?

titchy · 05/08/2019 20:06

My son recently went on a school residential. It was mixed sex.

And before he went you knew it was mixed sex, and you also knew that boys would be sleeping and showering separately to girls. Your point...?

3mks · 05/08/2019 20:08

"We can only teach our kids to enforce their boundaries and speak up when they've been violated. That's our only real defence."

It can be prevented tho in this case. How can you think that relying on a child being able to speak up after they have been violated compares to preventing it occuring in the 1st place.

HugsAreMyDrugs · 05/08/2019 20:14

What is with all the TERF on mumsnet?

No idea. What's with all the misogynists in the world?

No one got pregnant, had sex, was raped.

Hmm HTF do you know all of this?

GlitchStitch · 05/08/2019 20:15

And how can girls be expected to enforce their own boundaries if when doing so by objecting to males in their intimate space they are accused of transphobia, or being told to accept a falsehood as fact.

InsertFunnyUsername · 05/08/2019 20:20

You want your daughters to speak up, tell you when they aren't comfortable etc, but scream transphobic if anyone is anything but sunshine and rainbows about mixed sleeping trips.

Ridiculous, and the reason why many people are pushing back.

HugsAreMyDrugs · 05/08/2019 20:22

You want your daughters to speak up, tell you when they aren't comfortable etc, but scream transphobic if anyone is anything but sunshine and rainbows about mixed sleeping trips.

Exactly.

SlipperyLizard · 05/08/2019 20:22

I’ve got very firm boundaries, thank you very much. I will teach my daughters to have the same. Unfortunately 99.9% of adult (and many teenage) males in the world can easily overcome them through their superior strength.

Society helps women to maintain their boundaries by having single sex spaces where women have a reasonable and legitimate expectation of privacy and freedom from males, some of whom (but not all) may wish to overcome my very firm boundaries.

And please don’t throw lesbians into this. My best friend is a lesbian, I would (and do) happily change in front of her, share a bed with her in a way I simply wouldn’t with a make friend. Why? Because the vast majority of lesbians (99.9% probably) do not have any intention of trying to overcome my firm boundary that I am heterosexual.

Men, as a sex class, present a danger to women that women, as a sex class, simply do not.

The fact that a man feels like a woman does not change the risk. No males in women’s spaces!

twolobsters · 05/08/2019 20:25

What's with all the tin rattling around these topics lately? Hmm

GlitchStitch · 05/08/2019 20:27

Fundraising is necessary because organisations are being advised wrongly by well funded interest groups, and often incorrectly applying the law. I'm grateful to the individuals sticking their heads above the parapet to challenge this and they need financial support to do so. Nobody is making you donate.

minisoksmakehardwork · 05/08/2019 20:28

The leaders as policy stands are not able to make allowances for the young trans person using the facilities to give themselves privacy at a sensitive time - mid transition and displaying female form while clothed but when naked, being clearly male.

Imagine being outed as male on a guide camp when no one else knows.

The safeguarding works both bloody ways and girl guiding are steadfast in their ignorance.

breakfastpizza · 05/08/2019 20:34

OP - YANBU. Thank you for standing up for what so many of us support. It's a travesty that sex-based protections for women are being eroded. Safeguarding girls will be impossible without them.

What's also being lost is the failure to safeguard the so-called "trans" children currently being plied with experimental puberty blockers when they aren't even old enough to understand the irreversible consequences/risks. The coming lawsuits are going to be shocking.

GlitchStitch · 05/08/2019 20:42

You're not entitled to avoid the consequences of having views which largely society disagrees with. The fact that your story has been picked up by the mail and the telegraph says a lot.

Yes, the Guardian, with its readership dropping like flies is much more in tune with public opinion than the Mail with ten times the circulation. Or maybe the OP would be more credible if Pink News picked up on her story? You know, who just the other day were defending poor Jessica Yaniv from the nasty immigrant women who didn't want to touch a penis?

The idea that society largely disagrees with facts and biology is laughable. It isn't feminists on MN who are in the echo chamber.

LizzieSiddal · 05/08/2019 20:43

You want your daughters to speak up, tell you when they aren't comfortable etc, but scream transphobic if anyone is anything but sunshine and rainbows about mixed sleeping trips.

This X 100

peachgreen · 05/08/2019 20:46

Pretty disappointed this thread is still up when it's soliciting donations.

Whatthingsexactly · 05/08/2019 20:52

Feminism chat is leaking again

Yup. The OP has already got a lengthy thread soliciting funds in FWR. It originally included a direct link to the crowdfunder, which MN deleted because it’s against TGs.

So the OP knows full well that MNHQ don’t allow people seeking donations, and here they are on AIBU doing just that in slightly disguised language to get around the guidelines and avoid a deletion.

It’s so weird that other threads that have even a hint of trying to get MNers to send money are strongly discouraged, but posts like this are allowed to stand.

Whether you agree or not with the OP’s choices or their dispute with Girl Guides, anyone posting on a major forum to agitate against the organisation and signpost users towards donation to your own personal legal fund is seriously shabby.

sackrifice · 05/08/2019 20:53

Why are women so worried about others who happen to have other junk but identify as a woman and want to live as a woman?

What does that even mean?

InsertFunnyUsername · 05/08/2019 21:03

Can I ask a genuine question. Why are women so worried about others who happen to have other junk but identify as a woman and want to live as a woman?

Even this is a great example, the poster went all around the houses, tip toeing around to basically say "why are women so worried about males identifying as a woman"

The answer is: history Btw.

averylongtimeago · 05/08/2019 21:21

Katie I see the usual suspects are trying to take over this thread.

I for one support your actions- standing up for girls and their rights.
No one is "erasing " trans people- no one is saying all trans people are a threat to women and girls.

Girlguiding has always been single sex, in jan 2017 the wording on the website was quietly changed to include all who "identify" as female.
Whenever there has been any other major shift in guiding policy there has been consultations and discussions- the arguments over the changes to the wording of the promise and the new uniform went on for months if not years.
This was sneaked in under the radar. When we as leaders tried to question it we were shut down- letters, emails, tweets and phone calls to hq for clarification ignored. When we tried to discuss the ramifications of allowing male bodied children and adults in if the "identify " as female- safeguarding, practicalities at camp or holidays, intimate care - on various Facebook groups for leaders, posts were deleted and were we shut out.

As you know, this ended with Helen Watts and Katie being kicked out.

Proper safeguarding and informed parental consent is vital.
How can we risk assess (and believe me we do) properly if we can't mention the fact that a teen with a penis will be sharing with a teen with a vagina? On mixed camps (with scouts and guides) boys and girls sleep etc separately in the "old fashioned " way.
Males on a guide camp sleep separately and have separate facilities- there are strict rules.
We all know that "NAMALT" but risks still have to be recognised and dealt with.

peachgreen · 05/08/2019 21:34

Not sure if I count as one of the "usual suspects", but I don't see anyone trying to take over the thread. I've given up engaging with gender critical feminists on the actual issues so you can all say whatever you like as far as I'm concerned (although I can't deny I wish you'd keep it to the Feminist boards where you can all pat each other on the back in peace while the rest of us ignore you) but I do object to posts that break Talk guidelines being allowed to stand. And yes, this breaks Talk guidelines.

We only allow fundraising for registered charities to be promoted on our Talk boards - and these threads should be posted on the Charities noticeboard. This is in the interest of protecting our users as we aren't able to vouch for or endorse individuals running crowdfunding campaigns or anything along those lines.

NotMyPuppy · 05/08/2019 21:43

Can I ask a genuine question. Why are women so worried about others who happen to have other junk but identify as a woman and want to live as a woman?

Having been raped, in certain situations I am now scared being around people I don’t trust who have a penis. That’s a traumatic reaction to having been attacked. I recognise the majority of trans women who “happen to have junk” aren’t a risk, but nor are the majority of men.

I wasn’t raped by someone’s gender identity.

pikapikachu · 05/08/2019 22:05

Why are women so worried about others who happen to have other junk but identify as a woman and want to live as a woman?

What does it mean to identify and live as a woman? I assume it's more than different name, pronouns and wearing makeup but what does it mean? I am a woman- does that mean I automatically live as a woman? I don't own make-up or a dress. Living as a woman is a meaningless phrase to me and I don't care if a male is called Eve and a female is called Adam- it's just a name.