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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To suggest that safeguarding should be paramount when dealing with children?

132 replies

KatieAlcock · 05/08/2019 15:02

Because it was on these grounds that I was expelled from Girlguiding.

My story was in the Mail on Sunday yesterday and in the Telegraph today.

I'm taking them to court over my dismissal - they investigated me for talking about their policies on social media, but ultimately decided that I was OK to talk to a small group of people about the ins and outs of GG policy.

But they also decided that it is NOT OK for a leader to put safeguarding above policies - they specifically state trans policies, but frankly, wouldn't you rather your girl's Brownie leader put safeguarding ahead of any policy?

Also, AIBU to say that Mumnetters and other women are INCREDIBLY generous and helpful and that I've now managed to achieve something with their help? But that I'm not supposed to say what I've achieved? Or that I still need help?

OP posts:
Greeve · 05/08/2019 17:04

If you're funny about being naked in public, I'm sure you can change in a cubicle.

If your problem isn't that one of the scary trans kids won't get off looking at your daughter, what's the issue?

Butters83 · 05/08/2019 17:05

How will you safeguard against a trans child from sexual or physical assault by a group of girls?

titchy · 05/08/2019 17:05

If you're trying to reduce the amount of people who might be sexually attracted to your child and act on it.

Eh? It's nothing to do with sexual attraction at all....

Greeve · 05/08/2019 17:06

@titchy

I wouldn't be more upset by a female PE teacher. I think adults should give kids privacy during naked times. Sex has little to do with it.

Greeve · 05/08/2019 17:07

@titchy

So what are you safeguarding against? I thought it was because the menz are so into sexing up people without consent that a trans woman or girl will rape all the little girls at guides?

HugsAreMyDrugs · 05/08/2019 17:07

Girls bully just as much as boys.

Uh, okay? Not entirely sure what bullying has to do with mixed sex facilities but thanks so much for that wonderful insight.

Your daughter is just as likely to not tell you that a girl has made her feel sexually violated than she is a boy

My daughter is also highly unlikely to be on the receiving end of sexual violation from another girl.

I realise the fact that men and boys commit the vast majority of sexual assaults makes a lot of people feel very uncomfortable but ya know...#SorryNotSorry.

HugsAreMyDrugs · 05/08/2019 17:09

How will you safeguard against a trans child from sexual or physical assault by a group of girls?

Not allowing them to change together is a good start.

Greeve · 05/08/2019 17:10

That's completely untrue. Surveys amongst LGBT teens and young people have reported that they are equally as likely to feel they have been sexually coerced or assaulted than heterosexual teens. They're just less likely to recognise it as abuse or report it

minisoksmakehardwork · 05/08/2019 17:10

@Butters83 - you can't.

the safeguarding works both ways. Neither party can be adequately safeguarded if GGUK insist on a policy of secrecy.

If everyone knows what the situation is, what the expectations are, then when problems or concerns arrive they will likely have been considered and a plan out in place.

But if no one knows, then the young trans person has been just as exposed as the person who didn't expect to be sharing a shower block with a male bodied female.

HugsAreMyDrugs · 05/08/2019 17:10

Single sex isn't something I'd look out for.

Well as long as you're okay....

Greeve · 05/08/2019 17:11

What we know is that men commit more of the sexual assaults that we know about through reporting. While women may still commit less than men, we know it is vastly underreported. I actually did my dissertation on women sexual offenders.

HugsAreMyDrugs · 05/08/2019 17:13

That's completely untrue. Surveys amongst LGBT teens and young people have reported that they are equally as likely to feel they have been sexually coerced or assaulted than heterosexual teens. They're just less likely to recognise it as abuse or report it

I'm sure that's probably true but I'd bet my bottom dollar that the perpetrators in most of these cases are still predominantly male.

So my point about any daughter of mine being highly unlikely to be on the receiving end of sexual violation from girls still stands.

IAskTooManyQuestions · 05/08/2019 17:14

I've taken this from the DM as the OP says she gave her story to them and she hasn't said the quites are incorrect

The mother of two from Lancaster said: ‘A child may tell you I am trans, I’m going to meet someone that I’ve met on the internet or I’m taking these drugs that I’ve bought online. These are the kind of things a trusted leader could be told and we were informed we couldn’t disclose to any individual a child was transgender.

(a) drugs is a safeguarding issue
(b) on line grooming is a safeguarding issue
(b) exploring sexuality/gender (Trans or otherwise) is not.

You know you are discriminating under legislation laid out under the Equalities act 2010.

I cant give my opinion of you, unfortunately. But you know you are discriminating. No more need be said.

Frankly, lumping trans gender in with victims of grooming and drug taking is abhorrent.

HugsAreMyDrugs · 05/08/2019 17:15

What we know is that men commit more of the sexual assaults that we know about through reporting. While women may still commit less than men, we know it is vastly underreported. I actually did my dissertation on women sexual offenders.

Sex crimes are highly underreported in general.

I have no doubt that there are more female sex offenders than we know of.

There are also male sex offenders who aren't reported but that little nugget always seems to be forgotten about amongst the women just aren't reported crowd...

TeenTimesTwo · 05/08/2019 17:16

So Butters and Greeve Am I correct in understanding you are happy to do away with separated sex provision entirely, because you don't see any risk to biological women/girls from biological men/boys?

And you also don't think that people should be allowed to have privacy to be in more vulnerable situations (eg when part dressed or asleep) only in the presence of people with the same biology?

So mixed sex hospital wards, prisons, being searched by opposite sex, mixed sex sleeping for school trips?

And not only are you happy for this for yourselves/ elderly parents / children, but you also think no one else should be allowed to expect it either?

Just checking I understand you.

If I am wrong, please explain when you think it is OK.

(Also define woman without a circular definition please.)

HugsAreMyDrugs · 05/08/2019 17:17

You know you are discriminating under legislation laid out under the Equalities act 2010.

As are girl guides. However their discrimination is brushed under the rug and we're supposed to pretend it's not happening.

Fizzypoo · 05/08/2019 17:19

I'm not fussed about mixed sex. My dd (13) has her friends, who are boys, sleep over in groups. She also used to be in cubs and would go on the camps where it was predominantly Male.

What I am fussed about in this matter is excluding yp who may be Muslim or Jewish, or have strict religious parents where mixed sex sleep overs aren't allowed. That doesn't feel fair to me. There are plenty of mixed sex groups for yp to join, brownies and girl guides isn't one of them. A trans person cannot demand that their right overrules anothers. That's where my problem with the trans right activists lies.

Greeve · 05/08/2019 17:20

I don't think sleeping with people with the "same biology" lowers the risk of harm significantly enough for me to think it's the only way to safeguard my child.

I'd rather promote good boundaries, body ownership and confidence and assertiveness to help safeguard my child. I don't think focusing on men as the only perpetrators of potential harm is healthy.

Greeve · 05/08/2019 17:21

@Fizzypoo

Their parents aren't going to know though. They'll just think it's another little girl. Schools right now could have trans kids in the class and those same parents have no right to know.

HugsAreMyDrugs · 05/08/2019 17:21

Girl guides policy is also very discriminatory and trans exclusive because it excludes transboys. But again we're just supposed to ignore that blatant huge elephant in the room.

Apparently only transgirls and transwomen can be on the receiving end of transphobia.

Greeve · 05/08/2019 17:22

The definition of woman is irrelevant. I feel no more dignified on a bed pan behind a curtain in a room full of women as I do men. So no, closed doors and opaque dividers protect my privacy as much as anything will.

Greeve · 05/08/2019 17:23

But if you're a boy and more so if you've changed your gender to be a boy, why would you go to girl guides? Surely youd join the scouts.

HugsAreMyDrugs · 05/08/2019 17:24

I feel no more dignified on a bed pan behind a curtain in a room full of women as I do men

Like I said before, as long as you're okay...

MmmBlowholes · 05/08/2019 17:26

Feminism chat is leaking again...

HugsAreMyDrugs · 05/08/2019 17:26

But if you're a boy and more so if you've changed your gender to be a boy

This is a pointless statement to make because children can't get a GRC.