To ask leavers if they would vote differently now it's looking like no deal?

[TheoriginalLEM]

And as such should we go for another referendum?

I voted to remain and would continue to do so even if a deal was possible. However it is apparent that a deal isn't going to happen. Was it ever really going to be possible?

Would that change the mind of leavers? Or even remainers?

I would prefer to see no deal (even though I know its shit) than for this car crash to continue in slow motion any further.

TimeForAKinderWorld......I apologise. I got mixed up with so many having a go. SORRY

Are my posts invisible?

All those who are saying they’d vote leave again or opt for no deal: how do you propose to deal with the Irish border and the catastrophic impact on Northern Ireland of no deal?

Your posts aren't invisible lass, but answering them would mean they'd have to admit they didn't give a shit when they voted and don't give a shit now. Many have the expectation that the Irish will just fall in line with the Brits because they've been told to (actual responses on here and in RL and the media).

The constitutional skullduggery around Brexit despite knowing all along it would rip up the GFA, compromise peace in NI and cause untold suffering and death is one of the most shameful political acts in history.

The Irish and NIrish people made the decision for peace, putting aside deep pain and suffering and personal experiences, to their enormous credit.

That peace, once again, will be shattered by the blundering fools within Westminster, yet again treating the island of Ireland as an irrelevance.

JasJas 1973....You do make me laugh. I'm going to crawl under my bed now and not come out until it's all over. But before I go to answer your question....I don't know med and food shortages won't happen, when did I say I did ?? Unlike you who has all the answers and knows what will happen, you MUST HAVE a crystal ball. Please tell me where you bought it, was it Amazon ?😉

Many medics have stated that medicine shortages are to be expected post brexit. They've been saying it for 3 years.

If there won't be, why is the government stockpiling?

Pensionista

Well, you stated over and over again that you do not believe in the doomsday scenarios.

Unlike you i don't discount anything, inc that all will be good and the UK will thrive on day one, unlikely but who knows? certainly most experts inc the Govt discount this possibility.

I understand you don't like getting caught out but if you keep posting rubbish, someone will........

@Pensionista

I assume that because no one has a crystal ball, that we shouldn't pay attention to weather forecasts either? Especially not the ones which are laden with doom and gloom.

I got mixed up with so many having a go.

I didn’t think polite questions constitute having a go, but I’m sorry you feel like that.

I think we both know that the UK is already suffering adverse effects from the prospect of Brexit, don’t we, Bothwell? I won’t patronise you by suggesting you’re not aware of that.

Pensionista - do you accept that there might be people who, crystal ball aside, might actually know more about what will happen than you or I because they have been studying it for years? Surely the billions that have already been wasted on Brexit are alone a pretty clear sign that it's not going to work?

I've not had a chance to RTFT and I'm in a PMT brain fog so apologies for the rambling length. Here are some of my views on it all.

Voted Leave, would do again.

I do get cross when people refer to it as us leaving Europe. We're not. We're still European, as are the Swiss, Norwegians, Icelanders, and other European non-EU members.

I want a (good) deal but it's far preferable to leave without one - and then negotiate once out, than leave with a bad deal. And you certainly can't get a decent deal if you tell the other person/organisation that you're desperate for one and won't leave without. Imagine haggling in a market. You have to show them you're prepared to walk away. You have something they want. Your custom. EU businesses want/need our custom.

There's a lot I don't like about the EU, the exploitation of poorer member states being one concern. Freedom of movement when someone wants to travel for adventure and to experience new culture is quite different from people being forced to move abroad out of desperation because their own country has few jobs and/or non-survival wages, and then they get exploited by minimum wage, zero hours contracts employers and slum landlords in the UK (and other wealthier EU countries). It certainly doesn't benefit the countries left behind. I know that Poland, for example, is currently trying to entice younger people back home with incentives because so many areas have only the elderly and young children. I wish the EU had spread economic good fortune more equally across the member states.

Related to the above, I find it strange that people who want an Australian style points system based on in-demand occupations are condemned as racist. Surely opening up to the world rather than mainly white European is more inclusive? I don't deny that some racists voted Leave but that's irrelevant to the reality of what will happen under an Australian type immigration system.

Re. The Irish backstop. I'm nervous if sounding controversial and that's absolutely not my intention, but my initial thoughts are that surely we shouldn't give in to threats of terrorism and violence? If theres a will for peace, and the people I personally know from NI certainly want peace, then there's a will to make things work. The European Parliament commissioned a report, I believe, on this issue and recommend smart borders using technology similar to the Sweden/Norway and US/Canada border.

@AskMeAboutBoswell

Or, we could look at the individual bits of good and bad news regarding the economy and try and work out what is causing them.

For example, when questioning why investment in the automotive industry has collapsed in the years following the referendum, previously one of the UK's most successful manufacturing sectors, it is reasonable to question whether the uncertainty caused by brexit and the threat of a no deal is why no companies are investing in new/existing production facilities in Britain. Now there are a lot of different factors at play as to why investment has fallen in the UK automotive sector including the shift between diesel and petrol cars and the introduction of new electric lines. But the fact that the modern automotive supply chain crosses the channel several times in the manufacture of an individual car would be a pretty big factor for why no one is investing in the UK.

If we then take the continued economic growth since the referendum, well it is unlikely to be significantly impacted by brexit yet. Firstly, there was significant monetary easing by the BoE in the months following the referendum result which helped prop up the economy in the immediate aftermath. Secondly, the fundamentals of the UK were not changed by a vote to leave. Its not until we actually leave and finally see the impact on exports that we will truly know what the impact of brexit on the economy is.

Now if you think there are bits of good news about the economy out there which are attributable to brexit, feel free to show them to me. But please don't complain that everything that is good news is dismissed as not having left yet whilst bad news is put down to brexit without actually interrogating the facts and trying to understand what is actually causing them.

To all those leavers who say "noone knows what is going to happen", do you really dismiss ALL the experts who say it will be disastrous? Practically no-one is saying it will be good (even the Brexiteers in parliament have given up saying it will be good now!) If so, are you like this with all experts? If a doctor recommended chemotherapy as your best chance of survival would you say "well nobody knows what is going to happen so your knowledge doesn't count". I don't get it. It's like everyone's been brainwashed. 5 years ago nobody had much of an opinion on the EU. Now people seem to hate it so much that even when we are being told to prepare for economic failure, the break up of the UK and even deaths people say "bring it on".

@Namechangeforbrexit

Popularising the mantra that 'no deal is better than a bad deal' was one of the biggest missteps Theresa May made imo.

Firstly, your analogy doesn't really work. This isn't two people haggling in a market over a piece of fruit. Its 28 countries trying to negotiate one of the most complex pieces of supranational legislation of all time. And no deal should have been a complete non-starter given how much it harms the UK. To use your analogy but to make it slightly more relevant, this is someone haggling in a market when they are starving. Yes, they can walk away but at the end of the day they need to eat. Whereas the other party would like to make a sale but isn't desperate to do so.

By saying no deal is better than a bad deal, May did two things. Firstly she let the EU know that all they had to offer us was a deal that was considered to be marginally better than no deal. Secondly, it opened up no deal as a feasible option in the British publics mind. If we go back to the referendum, no one talked about no deal as if it was what a leave vote entailed. We were all told how following a vote to leave, German car manufacturers would demand that the UK be given full access to the EU single market. How we have moved from that to no deal being seen as the only pure brexit by a majority of leavers is something I still don't understand.

Name - just about all of your post is massively disingenious. Your apaprent concern for the economic welfare of people in poorer European countries just doesn't wash.

And the 'tactic' of 'being seen to be prepared to walk away' is naive in the extreme - people seem to forget EU Commission negotiators do actually read stuff that is produced in the UK - threats to walk away have zero effect.

NI Border - similarly absurd. The tech considered isn't, by govts own estimate, due for 2030 at the earliest.

Namechange you can’t have smart borders without a trade deal. So if we leave with No Deal they are not an option. NI does have the will for peace: that’s why the GFA exists. No Deal tramples on it.

I’m one of many people I know who think that the EU is a long way from perfect and I don’t disagree with many of the criticisms made of it. I don’t enormously subscribe to the European Ideal of all in it together, although conflict has been avoided through EU mechanisms. I have benefited as many of us have from the freedom to travel and work abroad, so I don’t want to see that go. But I am also a pragmatist. We are embedded in the EU; we have one of the best deals as a Member State, and to try to turn back the clock based on ideology and nostalgia is not right. We should be using what was our very loud voice to push for change. We could have actually implemented the immigration controls we are entitled to, that we never did. Cameron’s utter feeble ‘negotiation’ in advance of the referendum was a piece of showboating.

I profoundly disbelieve in causing unnecessary hardship to people, to damaging our economy, on the back of manipulative lies told on behalf of billionaires looking to make money out of us leaving the EU.

For all those who seem fairly blase about what no deal looks like, what do you make of the leaked government document which sets out what no deal could look like? And its not part of project fear, it was a confidential document produced for government planning purposes.

twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1156989930477953025?s=20

Yes it appears what Leavers voted for, and seemingly are keen to vote for again.
Fucking nutters, the lot of them.

No.

I voted leave and think no deal is a bit risky in the short term but could be good long term.

All these No Dealer people that think we will be in a stronger negotiating position after we've torched our trade deals and goodwill, what are you on?

Even if that were true, we don't have the base of negotiating skill we need and trade deals take years and years to complete. We will be totally weak and ripe for the picking. America will have us for breakfast. They've said it themselves.

You are deluded if you think No Deal is the end of it all.

HPT9000......What are you on about. Weather forcasts are just that, forcasts. To use this analagy with a crystal ball is just stupid.

Timeforakinderworld, I feel exactly the same. It has become a death cult. I'd love to know what papers, facebook ads and media these people are consuming.

I suppose I didn't articulate well enough. I don't mind a No Deal. That's perhaps the key to my haggling analogy. We will have to agree to disagree because I don't think we are the starving beggars in this scenario. I think they do need our custom. I agree with @Redspider1, short-term risk but long-term it will work out well.

I knew I shouldn't have posted when hormonal especially as I don't want an angry argument with @MrPan....I find it offensive, your accusation that I don't care about exploited people. Because I do very much. I always have, wherever they're from. It is an issue for me. Patronising people singing the praises of freedom of movement with racist subconscious attitudes that poor foreigners are happy to be exploited...! I'm from London, a cosmopolitan environment is all I've ever known. I love that. And that means people with roots worldwide. Yes, some from other European countries, but many from elsewhere. I like that diversity, which a skilled immigration points visa system would continue. I recently had an outpatient appointment at my local NHS hospital. The staff were from many countries worldwide, mostly non-EU. Unlimited unskilled immigration, however, benefits noone but wealthy exploitative employers and slum landlords.

JasJas1973.....I take it then that if someone doesn't agree with you or has a different opinion, they are posting rubbish. This is a typical answer from the arrogance of those that 'think' they know better. For your information not once have I 'discounted' anything..."Experts in Government" don't make me laugh. Most of them are complete idiots. I've worked with a few, in a different capacity.

@ittakes2 England didn’t leave, but perhaps the UK did.... They are not the same thing!