To ask leavers if they would vote differently now it's looking like no deal?

[TheoriginalLEM]

And as such should we go for another referendum?

I voted to remain and would continue to do so even if a deal was possible. However it is apparent that a deal isn't going to happen. Was it ever really going to be possible?

Would that change the mind of leavers? Or even remainers?

I would prefer to see no deal (even though I know its shit) than for this car crash to continue in slow motion any further.

Doubleraspberry....I meant to say, "having a go all at once" My pad battery was running out and I made a mistake for which I've apologised for. But hey thanks for bringing it to my attention. I don't 'feel' anything if someone is arrogant, patronising, or rude on here. It's par for the course. Polite questions are fine, unfortunately they are not always asked that way.

@Pensionista

Paraphrasing slightly but you said that we don't have a crystal ball so we shouldn't believe what the doom mongers tell us about whats going to happen.

But if we take that approach then we shouldn't believe weather forecasts either. No one has a crystal ball so no one knows what the weather will be like tomorrow. But people have spent a lot of time trying to forecast as accurately as possible what will happen tomorrow based on current conditions.

Likewise with a no deal brexit, no one knows what will happen the day after it happens. But you can look at how the current system operates and make predictions based on this as to what will happen. For example businesses can predict the impact of no deal brexit on their business (the car manufacturers were so sure it would be negative that they all shut their factories down at the start of April). The government/economists can then try and amalgamate all these individual predictions into one model. Now its not going to be perfect but like a weather forecast, its the closest we have to a crystal ball and people will be making decisions based on these forecasts that run into the billions of pounds so its in their interests for them to be as accurate as possible.

I find it offensive, your accusation that I don't care about exploited people.

The thing is, if you actually do care about exploited people then why would you vote for something that hits the vulnerable in our society the hardest? I help out at my local foodbank and have seen the need for it skyrocket over the last year - many of the people using it have lost their jobs or been put onto zero hour contracts thanks to 'Brexit planning'. I have worked in hospices and with charities that have seen the government's cuts to essential services and welfare payments cut right to the bone under the auspices of 'Brexit planning'.

You can scoff at 'experts' as it seems trendy to do these days, but why would you not listen when someone (usually in the educated middle-class bracket that has no major skin in the game) who has studied this and is intelligent enough to offer educated forecasts based on actual evidence?

Not 'let's all pull together' faux optimism but actual facts and figures? I can't understand it, it really is like a cult.

Hmm...so you're saying that you voted leave majorly because of the economic inequality in the EU countries? And so to help this you wish to make this country contract economically, make us all poorer with more limited opportunities.....and you expect me and anyone else on the planet to believe this? Really?

There are about 4 people, all of them using a range of fake usernames and profiles on this thread. The similarities in language usage and writing style make it so obvious. I wonder if the Russian ‘bots’ have managed to infiltrate Mumsnet.

HPT9000.. like all the 'expert' forecasters who said we would be doomed if we didn't join the Euro do you mean??

Report it then @LellyMcKelly , mumsnet frowns upon troll hunting and sock puppetry.

I did wonder that too. We've had a very quick influx of leavers recently (since BJ was put in No.10) and I've noticed two posters type pretty much the same length of posts as each other and the use of diction is quite similar. From nowhere to all over it.

Curious?

like all the 'expert' forecasters who said we would be doomed if we didn't join the Euro do you mean??

This is an interesting point. Many economists were convinced that we needed to join the Euro. The Government set its five economic tests and they were never met, and then the Eurozone became a less enticing offer.

Where are the differences? Forecasting is not an exact science, weather or economic. It’s based on what we know and then modelling. So you’re right to say that we don’t know how some of this will play out. But some of it is already happening - my job would be one. Some of the scenarios you will count as ‘Doom’ are merely explanations of the inevitable immediate result of moving to WTO terms. The people saying some of this stuff is wrong as outright lying. It’s not a difference of opinion, it’s fact v fiction.

So there are many unknowables, and let’s hope for all our sake that some outcomes are more optimistic than forecasts suggest. But you can’t ignore them all.

And the forecasting I work with is not done by idiots. It’s done by people with a lifetime’s expertise in many cases. Again, this language is so unhelpful. You cannot dismiss experts as idiots and provable facts as lies. It undermines the civil contract and opens us all up to a scary political and social future.

@LellyMcKelly I've had much the same thought.

Doubleraspberry.. At last a balanced view which I agree with. Only one thing I don't, I have never said ALL experts. I'm sure there are those that do a good job. There just don't seem to be many of them that I've come across.

You said ‘most’ of them are idiots. That is really not the case.

I voted Leave and still would. There will be mini deals done even if we have to leave without a May style treaty.

@Namechangeforbrexit your posts are very sensible and I agree with you.

I'm not a Russian bot or sock puppet (not actually sure what that is?). Joined MN a while ago but frequently name change. I guess MNHQ can confirm?

I never intended to out myself as a leaver because I prefer light-hearted chat on here. I think bad PMT coinciding with reading this thread pushed me to post.

@MrPan economic inequality across the EU is certainly one reason why I voted leave. One amongst several. I don't represent all leavers so obviously some will have voted from a more right-wing perspective.

I mentioned freedom of movement to try (badly) to point out that it seems strange to label Brexiters racist when there's implicit racism in the notion of ever so grateful poor foreigners, happy to do poorly paid jobs with bad working conditions. And, I think a points based skilled migration system is less racist than freedom of movement that's focused on white European countries, rather than relevant skills, experience, and education.

@Quizzlybear I know it's a lot more than simply EU freedom of movement but surely it can't help when employers have an ever ready pool of replacement cheap workers? Surely that contributes to the ease with which they can offer poor wages and bad conditions? Less competition for the jobs would it not mean improved wages? I agree that food bank usage is a result of austerity politics (but I think that freedom of movement for unskilled low paid work enables these policies).

Why do some of the remainers think we would all be poorer long-term if we leave?

I honestly think we will be seen as the brave ones who bring down a bloated monolithic union who has been sucking the life out of Europe.

Is this satire?

Surely opening up to the world rather than mainly white European is more inclusive?

This

I think a points based skilled migration system is less racist than freedom of movement that's focused on white European countries, rather than relevant skills, experience, and education.

And this.

Surely opening up to the world rather than mainly white European is more inclusive?

It's funny you know, I don't remember half the fuss about EU migrants until Eastern European countries joined the EU.

Suddenly it's an issue and voting Leave was to cut the amount of white immigrants?

Ahahahahahahahahaha. Nice try.

Less competition for the jobs would it not mean improved wages?

Yes it would. Except there are and will be (by every independent study and forecast) far less jobs. International businesses don't want to invest in a country with a terrible economic outlook and small businesses are going under daily. Anyone who trades with the EU now is looking at a huge amount of uncertainty, with us a death knell for any business.

I just want to add that I wavered in the polling booth. Because, emotionally, I like being part of the club. I love being European (of course, I still will be when we leave the EU). Selfishly, for me freedom of movement is great. I love travelling with ease to EU countries and still think about moving abroad possibly to the eurozone. So for me, freedom of movement is a benefit. But I'm privileged. Many others aren't.

The attitude and behaviour of arrogant bullies like Juncker and Tusk helped me deal with the emotional wrench. I remember the way Greece was treated. The EU like one of the worst loan sharks, getting them into hock to join the Euro when they clearly weren't ready economically, then landing them with punitive repayment terms...

Why do some of the remainers think we would all be poorer long-term if we leave?

Because EVERY economic forecast says so. Even Rees-Mogg has said it'll take 50 years to get our economy bank to where it is now. The Brexit Party have been far more optimistic and labelled it as 30 years.

Unless you have access to information that they and we don't?

What, so people voted leave to be more inclusive?
pull the other one

At the time, not only did people not vote 'no deal' many voted simply as a protest vote to stick it to David Cameron, not even expecting to leave the EU.

Plunging the country into recession and breaching the good Friday agreement is something that as a remainer I'll never accept or understand. It's pretty much unjustifiable.

But leavers have to take resonsibility now. The consequences will be 100 percent theirs to own, and no-one elses fault. Good luck with that.

I voted remain but would vote leave now. I’m just sick of it all now. I like that Johnson is playing hardball and hope he sticks to his guns. We either get a better deal or no deal. Either suits me fine now. I’m sick of pandering to the EU.

Re. The Irish backstop. I'm nervous if sounding controversial and that's absolutely not my intention, but my initial thoughts are that surely we shouldn't give in to threats of terrorism and violence? If theres a will for peace, and the people I personally know from NI certainly want peace, then there's a will to make things work. The European Parliament commissioned a report, I believe, on this issue and recommend smart borders using technology similar to the Sweden/Norway and US/Canada border.

Thanks for addressing my point, Namechange - it’s very striking that you’re the only Leaver on this thread to do so.

However, saying “we mustn't give in to terrorism” is a really simplistic and glib response to a complex and nuanced problem. The whole point of the GFA and the open border which stemmed from it and on which it was partially predicated was to allow the people of NI to begin to move on from a bloody conflict and try to build a life of peace alongside each other. The common and co-existing British/Irish identities and ways of life which has been enabled by common European Union membership will be abruptly cut off if there is no deal. It’s not merely that no deal will just automatically lead to violence (although dissident republicans will certainly target border infrastructure, smart or not, whether it’s at the border or ten miles back from the border - and then you have to protect the technology, which provides more, and human, targets). More importantly, it’s that the settling of the whole thorny question of political identity, allegiance and belonging, which underlay the conflict in NI, will be ripped up.

Simply sticking your fingers in your ears and singing Kumbayah while embarking on a course of action that will completely alter the basis of the peace settlement in NI is disingenuous, selfish and wilfully disavowing of Britain’s historic responsibility in NI.

I find it hard to put into words the fury I feel, as an Irish person, at the delicate peace in Northern Ireland being ripped away in this manner, simply to placate Brexiter extremism. Not to mention the deep despair I feel at seeing the poisoning of the well of Anglo-Irish relations, especially given the careful efforts, over decades, to get to a position of what I thought was genuine friendship between our two nations. I almost can’t speak about it in real life, as I find the whole thing so distressing, and I have tears in my eyes writing this post. The state visit of the Queen to Ireland and the visit of President Higgins to the U.K. seemed to represent the pinnacle of that process of reconciliation. Now it seems like it was nothing but a great sham. Croppies lie down.

The more inclusive comment is in response to the boring argument of leavers being racist right wingers.

These threads always go the same way.