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Original poster

To ask leavers if they would vote differently now it's looking like no deal?

703 replies

TheoriginalLEM · 02/08/2019 07:31

And as such should we go for another referendum?

I voted to remain and would continue to do so even if a deal was possible. However it is apparent that a deal isn't going to happen. Was it ever really going to be possible?

Would that change the mind of leavers? Or even remainers?

I would prefer to see no deal (even though I know its shit) than for this car crash to continue in slow motion any further.

OP posts:
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6
Doubleraspberry · 02/08/2019 11:41

Pensionista, I don’t know. Who do you consider to be the politicians who are ignoring the referendum result? Because the ones who spend a great deal of their time shouting about betrayal seem to be the same people who are driving us to No Deal for their own ideological reasons. The ones who voted against every single possible option for leaving that might have found political and popular consensus.

KidLorneRoll · 02/08/2019 11:42

"It would be good to set the first vote in action..."

What do you think has been happening for the last 3 years? This idea that the referendum has been ignored is utter nonsense. Turns out, however, that leaving the EU is really, really hard. Whodathunkit.

QuizzlyBear · 02/08/2019 11:45

@Pensionista the problem with 'implementing the results of the first vote before changing your mind' is that we'd have to reapply for EU membership from scratch...

A) our membership would probably be vetoed by one of the member states in retaliation for the crap we've said over the last three years, delaying our membership at the very least.

B) as a new member we'd have to join the Euro.

C) we'd have NONE of the exclusive rights we have now - ie options to block decisions we don't agree with and a seat at the top table.

D) our credibility would be in the toilet and we'd still have to pay the 'divorce bill'.

Why is that better than campaigning to have a new referendum based on the facts as we now know them?

AskMeAboutBoswell · 02/08/2019 11:45

It's hard because of our parliamentary system which allows personal feelings of the mp's to override public votes.

ThroughThickAndThin01 · 02/08/2019 11:46

I voted leave with confidence. Now I’m
not so sure. If there was another referendum I’m not sure I’d vote at all.

Although most other leaver voters I know still want to leave deal or no deal.

Pensionista · 02/08/2019 11:47

KidLorneRoll In case you hadn't noticed, sweet FA has been happening for the last three and a half years apart from those people doing their best to stop democracy due to self interest, tearing the Country apart and fueling arguments like this. Oh and also the rise of those people with crystal balls.

MrPan · 02/08/2019 11:50

It's tricky to leave because we have decades of sophisticated relationships and trade arrangements to unpick, and there are fresh consequences for the Union since 1974.
Compared with the ultra dim "all the benefits/none of the costs", " it will be the easiest trade agreements in history", " sunlit uplands". From our 'negitiators'.

It's almost as if they hadn't thought it all through. And like Tinkerbell, all you have to do is wish hard enough.

Our EU Commission negotiators are just staring at us, cringing for us worryingly.

Chocolatehat · 02/08/2019 11:50

@QuizzlyBear The EU could easily have given us better terms that parliament would have passed. They have offered us terms that are worse than they give to countries that have never been members.

MrPan · 02/08/2019 11:52

I'd understand the apaprent attraction of 'just get on with it, it's been dragging on..'. It doesn't just happen, as an event. It's a process that will take years to follow through, and the chaos and instability will be a perma-feature. In a country which had been viewed as the most stable.

Pensionista · 02/08/2019 11:54

QuizlyBear..... you are correct on all your points but unfortunately they are irrelavent. We voted already, we got a result. We have to impliment the result. If we don't do this, we will have to change completely the way our democracy and Parliment works. (Could be a good thing in the long run ) I don't know. And unlike others on here I don't have a crystal fucking ball, thank goodness. Doom, Doom Doom

Alsohuman · 02/08/2019 11:54

The most compelling argument for another referendum I’ve seen is that nobody born in this century, ie those whose future is most affected, have had any say in this at all. We have a completely different electorate from three years ago. The ones with the most skin in the game have reached voting age, while many who voted in 2016 are no longer with us.

LadyRannaldini · 02/08/2019 11:56

Did those who voted to Leave seriously think that a deal was possible? There were no negotiations, the UK put forward a plan and the others, led by the nose, rejected it, it was never going to be any different.

Doubleraspberry · 02/08/2019 11:56

It's hard because of our parliamentary system which allows personal feelings of the mp's to override public votes.

We have a representative democracy. Our MPs are meant to work in our best interests. If all the evidence (and there is quite a lot) suggests that No Deal is against the interests of their constituents then they have a duty to consider that.

sweet FA has been happening for the last three and a half years

Apart from: a General Election which the PM called to increase her majority on a platform of hard Brexit so she could get it through the House, which delivered a hung Parliament reflecting the lack of public consensus; the (premature?) triggering of Article 50 and eighteen months of negotiations in which the UK was unable to agree a negotiating position because there was no political consensus on what the UK wanted, and six months of parliamentary disagreement as there is no consensus on what the country wants.

The very small number of people who genuinely want No Deal in the full understanding of its implications have got themselves into an incredibly powerful position. But the country still doesn’t know what it wants so how can that be delivered?

Doubleraspberry · 02/08/2019 11:57

The EU could easily have given us better terms that parliament would have passed. They have offered us terms that are worse than they give to countries that have never been members.

Just out of interest, what were those terms?

KidLorneRoll · 02/08/2019 11:58

Why do we have to implement a result when ALL the evidence shows it will leave the country worse off AND we have taken legal advice that we can unilaterally revoke A50 if we choose?

Why? Because of a poxy, non-legally binding and illegal referendum that was only called because Cameron was desperate to keep his party in power? That's a shit answer.

MrPan · 02/08/2019 11:58

Choc - can you describe what these offered terms are exactly? And how they are worse than those offered to new applicants please?

tia

AskMeAboutBoswell · 02/08/2019 12:00

Double, they aren't though. They have their own agenda, and I always thought that working in our interests and representing us just meant that they were supposed to act as a 'mouthpiece' for the constituents, not sit in their ivory towers laughing at our choices and telling us no, they won't do as we ask.

BoneyBackJefferson · 02/08/2019 12:00

KidLorneRoll

As I said its the same people just shuffled around. Boris and his new cabinet have always been there pushing for this.

All the other players haven't magically appeared to take various places.
They are all career politicians. They are all MPs, no-one has changed.

If they revoked A50, it would still be the same shower of shit in power.

AtmosClock · 02/08/2019 12:01

The EU could easily have given us better terms that parliament would have passed. They have offered us terms that are worse than they give to countries that have never been members.

If I understand, we haven’t been offered any terms. The WA is largely a pause for two years where we keep the arrangements we have now, expect we don’t have voting rights, and we have two years to work out new agreements, etc.

MrPan · 02/08/2019 12:01

This is an unusual thread over all, in terms of MN Brexit threads.
So many leavers congregating, suddenly, espousing a no deal. Since Johnson has come to No.10.

Curious.

GrouchoMrx · 02/08/2019 12:02

I also know a guy who doesn't have two brain cells to rub together. He told me everyone who voted remain would now vote no deal.

Of course, I completely believe him and take everything he says as gospel.

AskMeAboutBoswell · 02/08/2019 12:07

@mrpan, apart from your pathetic attempts to drive us away with insults, there's been a bit of a sea change on MN regards to leavers.
I've been on here posting since before the referendum, stopped soon after the vote was announced, and now I'm posting again as debate is being 'allowed' by the remainers who were so angry and full of hate before.

Maybe you need to evolve a tiny bit more, learn to listen to both sides??

Doubleraspberry · 02/08/2019 12:08

Double, they aren't though. They have their own agenda, and I always thought that working in our interests and representing us just meant that they were supposed to act as a 'mouthpiece' for the constituents, not sit in their ivory towers laughing at our choices and telling us no, they won't do as we ask.

Why are they not acting as mouthpieces for their constituents by looking for the best possible outcomes for them?

Referendums/direct democracy is a deeply flawed way of making democratic decisions. They are illegal in some countries (Germany in particular ran into quite a lot of trouble in the 30s). There are guidelines around running referendums and the 2016 one broke pretty much every one. The enabling Act was rushed though Parliament in one day, which was a deeply stupid thing to have done. It was totally flawed.

I agree with you that a disconnect between politicians and people has led us to where we are now. Being handed a vote which was equally weighed with every other vote, unlike our flawed FPTP system, meant that people used to it say they wanted something different. (Ironically of course very few people voted in the earlier referendum which would have actually changed our voting system.) But implementing the very imprecise ‘Leave’ vote is really, really hard to do in a way that also represents the best interests of many voters, because unfortunately leaving the EU is likely to disadvantage many of us, so trying to do that while minimising harm is being painted as betrayal. I can assure you that many MPs who think Leave is a terrible idea personally will nonetheless vote for some sort of deal to protect their constituents.

Doubleraspberry · 02/08/2019 12:10

I have said flawed rather too much in my post. Says a lot about the situation I guess.

AskMeAboutBoswell · 02/08/2019 12:13

Double, the average MP has never lived even slightly like the average person. They are protected from the results of their imposed decisions. To represent a person means to do their bidding, not scoff and hand down their noble thought on the matter.

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