It is harder to have a family the more intelligent you are?

[TheTribe]

I remember reading that more intelligent women are not having children. Is this choice or not do you think? Should we be encouraging smart people to have children in some way? I saw idiocracy...

www.mic.com/articles/58579/women-without-children-aren-t-selfish-they-re-smart

@Piglet89 - you'll notice, I hope, that I didn't state that my anecdotes were representative of a general population trend?

It's fine to relate statistics to individual circumstances. It's not ok to debunk a statistic correlation purely on the basis of your own experiences.

But what was the point of relating your story (apart from to boast, really). It doesn’t further your argument at all.

"It's true that "childfree by choice" women are disproportionately of higher than average intelligence. They're also more likely to never marry than someone of average or below average intelligence."

I agree with pps who say that all the studies have been bases on educational attainment rather than intelligence.

Educactional attainment is more influenced by your Parents than any other factors (i did a dissertation on this), then is life opportunities which income has the most influence over.

It's true to say that Women with more life choices have less children than those who don't have the luxury of chouce, or those that are very influenced by their Culture/religion.

Life chances start from birth and effect every part of our lives.

Labour governments seek to increase the life chances for everyone. The Conservative government tries to punish poor people into complying (two child benefit policy/rent cap etc).

This argument mirrors the one about White Western Women controlling their fertility whilst Women in the third world don't.

We need a future workforce/army, whether it matters were it comes from is takes us, into eugenics.

I'd use Conservative politicians to show how the well educated and scoring high on an intelligence test can equal incredibly stupid and downright evil.

I think also education/intelligence doesn't always equal ambition/career drive.

I've got lots of qualifications because 'ooh that's interesting' but tbh I'm not very career minded/happily leave work at the dot of 5pm.

That's another annoying thing...being told you are 'wasting your qualifications'

I'm going to provide one more example and I'm approaching this from a philosophical point of view, so I would appreciate it if people take the same stance as it being a philosophical debate.

You have 2 women: Sally and Jane.

Sally and Jane both start a rigorous course in university together. Sally is pressured by family and society to pursue a healthcare degree. Jane is pressured to do the same.

Sally and Jane are out on placements. They realise that the workforce they are with are stressed, understaffed, and at complete risk of being blamed/sued for cost saving policies by management. There is also a continuous risk of catching an illness because insufficient personal protection is provided (again another cost saving measure).

Sally keeps trudging along because she can't back out now and face what people would say if she were to quit.

Jane says "Fuck that" and finds a billionaire that marries her without a prenuptial agreement. She never has to work a day for the rest of her life.

Sally graduates with her formal education but cries on the way to work everyday because she hates it, her anxiety grows more as she fears the fateful day when something goes wrong, and she is blamed for it.

Now I'm not saying that Jane IS smarter than Sally. I'm saying that they have different ambitions and it's impossible to say who is smarter than the other. It's subjective. Some people will say Sally is smarter and some people will say Jane is smarter. My point is that people can be intelligent and make different life choices than pursuing formal education.

Formal education does equal a decrease in fertility.

Intelligence does not equal formal education.

I agree that intelligence does not necessarily equate to formal qualifications - some people fail to meet their full academic potential because of undiagnosed learning disabilities such as ADD.

It is not to do with intellect it is to do with education.

intelligent people think about what they can provide for children - not just feed and clothe, but also educate. What you can give in terms of life quality to 1-3 children, you wouldn't be able to if you had 7

Part of me wants to believe a lower level of education doesn't necessarily mean someone is less intelligent, less capable of reasoned thought, less rational.

But then I look at the correlation between education levels and Remain/Leave voters and I want to smack my head on the wall repeatedly.

But then I look at the correlation between education levels and Remain/Leave voters and I want to smack my head on the wall repeatedly.

I just want to start by saying I do not agree with Brexit.

I do see why people voted for Leave though, and particularly if you are a self-employed tradesman then you have got the short end of the stick when you have to compete with low wage labour from the EU. This does not effect individuals in the cities as much, because their reliance for work depends more on "Who you know". You add in areas that feel they were "left behind" when compared to London, and it's not hard to see how these people were manipulated in to voting for a worse outcome. That does not mean they are stupid, but they were lied to.

I think a lot of people self evaluate their own intelligence. They fail to see they are the deadwood being carried by the rest of society.

Intelligence is highly undervalued by society. Value equalling the reward given ie money. What society does value, and what contributes IMO to the decreasing intelligence, is entertainment. Colossal sums of money are paid for entertainment - sports, music, movies. This money could be put towards things that improve society, done by intelligent people, eg looking for cures or better treatments for diseases, finding efficient renewable resources. But hey, that's just not FUN!!!

As to having children, I think intelligent women have options. They generally don't have to rely on anyone to support them. Children are a choice. Changes in science mean they can be successful and then have children later in life. The lateness in having children may be a contributing factor to how many children they are able to have. Or they may have decided to give one or two children as much as they can, instead of spreading resources more thinly over more children.

I'd be surprised if there isn't a strong correlation for women between intelligence and lower average number of children. I'd also be surprised if its not reversed if anything for men.

I work in a university and know any number of really bright men and women...and the women certainly have far fewer kids on average than the men.

In my department more than 50% of the women are childless. This is abundantly untrue for the men.

Yep, but the only difference I think is intelligent women wait till they are secure and less likely to have "oops" babies. I don't think completely child free.

Jane says "Fuck that" and finds a billionaire that marries her without a prenuptial agreement. She never has to work a day for the rest of her life.

I hope Jane actually loves her billionaire who agreed to marry her because she thought “fuck it I’ll just find a rich bloke instead of a career” otherwise this is just a form of prostitution.

Thinking about it now, you know those types of mums that have 3 or 4 kids, all by different dads, spend their lives on benefits and are just generally chavvy? I’ve never met an intelligent one, they are all thickos.

I hope Jane actually loves her billionaire who agreed to marry her because she thought “fuck it I’ll just find a rich bloke instead of a career” otherwise this is just a form of prostitution.

She might love him. I don't know the circumstances of every marriage. It's just an example of women who decide to enter in to marriages/families that are more beneficial to them personally than the pursuit of formal education. I wouldn't call that prostitution either, it's still marriage to pursue a family.

I would consider marrying someone affluent solely for procreation reasons and because you don’t want the stress of working yourself is pretty repugnant.

I would consider marrying someone affluent solely for procreation reasons and because you don’t want the stress of working yourself is pretty repugnant.

Cool. Neither of us know the goals of every marriage in this world. Some women find men they love who can provide, and decide to become caretakers. They find this decision to be more beneficial to their families then working in the precarious/risky field I mentioned. Am I going to personally judge every woman's decisions and circumstances? No. Am I going to say one is smarter than the other? No. Are women all different with different ambitions and goals in life? Yes. Should we judge or shame anyone? No I don't think we should because we are not in everyone's shoes.

Gingerbreadsprinkle, ok. I’ve read back all your posts on this thread and have realised, as many before me, that the idea of having a truly interesting and intelligent conversation with you would be a case of a triumph of hope over experience.

Also just to clarify, I would not call Kate Middleton a prostitute because she decided to not go for a PhD in Art History and pursue a further career in the major she studied, but instead decided to marry William. I think she loves William but also realised that marriage would mean a better future for her than further education. There is nothing wrong with that, and yes, she is smart.

AllsfairOrisit

That response is the epitome of taking a discussion personally and getting butthurt.

Really. I’m not “butthurt”. Interesting you took it that way though. Sounds like I’m not the person here taking things personally!

Having a child wasn’t exactly a choice for me. I was driven by maternal instinct, I was longing to hold and nurture a baby.

Of course, not all women feel this way but if this emotion didn’t exist then I doubt many women would bother having children. By that logic, I suppose that it’s the lifestyle of more intelligent women that impacts on them becoming mothers or not.

No...surely it’s easier? I found someone to have children with within like three months of starting to date. Most men I know who are desirable child making partners only want intelligent women. Obviously some intelligent women might choose not to have children but not because they are finding it challenging.

Really. I’m not “butthurt”. Interesting you took it that way though. Sounds like I’m not the person here taking things personally!

I've no idea why you decided to make it personal then, unless you took it as a personal attack that I disagreed. I don't believe that women who choose to have families over the pursuit of career at all costs, are idiots. But I guess if you say that to some people who have decided to not have children then they don't want to have a discussion, they'd rather just get butthurt that you dare to question their life philosophy.