It is harder to have a family the more intelligent you are?

[TheTribe]

I remember reading that more intelligent women are not having children. Is this choice or not do you think? Should we be encouraging smart people to have children in some way? I saw idiocracy...

www.mic.com/articles/58579/women-without-children-aren-t-selfish-they-re-smart

@gingerbreadsprinkle

Ah, the response of someone with no response. A patronising and arrogant statement, as are all your others

Iltavilli

Did you actually want to carry on a discussion about the topic or do you just want to continue to derail the thread?

Forgive me if it has already been mentioned upthread, but nobody has yet mentioned the issue of fertility decreasing with age.

Women with high-flying careers may decide that their career has to come first for a few years which could mean that they aren't trying to start a family until their mid-30's. The longer they leave it, the more difficult it may be to conceive.

Not really to do with intelligence then, but more of a biological clock issue.

Which we've all known for years.

Women with high-flying careers may decide that their career has to come first for a few years which could mean that they aren't trying to start a family until their mid-30's. The longer they leave it, the more difficult it may be to conceive.

I think the biological clock is definitely an issue. I also think there are a number of women who will take lower paid work or work fewer hours, who are also very intelligent so that they can focus on having children. I don't think it means there is a decrease in intelligence overall but I do agree that women overall have a declining fertility rate. I just can't agree that a woman who decides to take a career break to have children, despite also being educated/intelligent, is now inherently stupid for not chasing higher positions at work. Intelligent people are not all the same and do not always have the same ambitions.

@gingerbreadsprinkle

I would have liked an understanding of why you feel you are so right about this, and others do wrong, despite your evident lack of knowledge of the UK market (given hugely incorrect terminology).

But then I realised I couldn’t care less about your opinion as you are so utterly closed to other people’s ideas and experiences to even correct them on their own career histories.

So instead, now I want all the women here who felt offended and upset by your comments to realise what an utter fraud you are.

I'm not quoting outdated statistics from the 1830's Neilsm - according to my consultant when I was having fertility treatment, they are very much relevant nowadays too.

Iltavilli

You got me. Total fraud. It's not like I could have grown up in one place and become a citizen in another, impossible! Call the Spanish inquisition. Lol. 🙄

I'm sorry if I have offended and upset people by believing that you were a genius and an engineer in all the industries as has been discussed. Can you move on now and discuss the topic?

There are plenty of people out there without formal education who are far more intelligent and financially successful, particularly ones who are entrepreneurial or with technical licensure!

And why in the world are you equating financial success with intelligence? I know plenty of rich morons, and quite a few very intelligent people who make a lot less money because they have chosen an artistic career or work in the not for profit sector.

we know from research that higher education correlates with greater intelligence, I am not sure there is any evidence that financial success does though (expect of course that greater education also correlates with financial success but this is a mediated relation)

And why in the world are you equating financial success with intelligence?

I do not. But I just don't believe that formal education always means intelligence. I think it means hard work and good memorisation skills, but it does not always mean intelligence. I guess intelligence is subjective, but I imagine intelligence is the capability to solve equations that others cannot or to create something with computational complexity. I feel it's sad to discredit so many people as being unintelligent for lacking a degree, because I have known so many who are far smarter than me. I have a degree and they don't, but they are developers that can create what I cannot.

I think for a lot of intelligent woman especially those that go to university or further they look for a partner similar to themselves. These woman generally want to be with a man who is intelligent, ambitious, knows the value of working hard be it in college or in his place of work or in setting up his own business.
A lot of intelligent woman will spend a few years in college to get a degree and then work and possibly do further training on top of this.They wait until they are financially stable before having a kid/kids. They can be in their 30's before having say 2 or 3 kid's.
Then you see the intelligent men some will marry intelligent woman. Then some men will marry the woman who might not be highly intelligent but is happy to have kids, stay at home and support him as he goes towards the high paying job with the long hours.
I don't think that being intelligent stops you from having a family but you will think about having a child rather than having an unplanned pregnancy due to a one night stand or an on/off boyfriend.

Oh dear fuck

Some of the most intelligent people I've ever met have zero emotional intelligence. Equally, I know quite a few extremely intelligent women who are great parents and have 4 or 5 kids. Some are even the MN dreaded SAHMs. I know our school district is eternally grateful for their wisdom and experience.

I haven't read past the first page, so forgive me if I'm just repeating others responses.

I'm childfree by choice, have read the other thread in full and I have seen Idiocracy.
I personally never had that urge that gets talked about and I have always been grateful for this if I'm honest, as it seems like the so called 'natural thing' is a massive pain in the arse.
I could lose my job, my home, never find the right partner, become seriously ill, never have any money, no support network and have some serious issues, but it will only really affect me. I'm aware that there are people who will suffer all of the above but why would you do it to some poor unsuspecting child if you have any awareness?
That's the thing isn't it, that the 'urge' is stronger than the practicalities in some people but it has to be or we would have died out.

My relief about not having children is stronger than my regret, because I am a very sensitive, anxious person and worry for the future of planet and species.

women with degrees are seen as less attractive and less picked by men - depressing - from online dating website data.

This means that sometimes, not having children isn't a choice - some women just never meet anyone who wants to have a family with them. Of course, if your education and career means you have the money to go it alone, that might be an option, and some women choose it - but others wouldn't choose to be a single parent (even if a fair few people end up that way anyway.)

Oh, and I'm thick as fuck BTW.

State-school, Oxbridge - did my bit for the gene pool through self-sacrificially having six kids...still waiting for my OBE!

Fairly convinced it's more to do with not finding a suitable partner rather than a high IQ leading to a lower desire to have children.

I made the choice to compromise & marry someone less intelligent than myself, as he was handsome and kind and not stupid (he has a degree and is a professional, but he's not super smart), but he drives me up the wall at times...and we have 2 amazing children.

The overlap of men I have found physically attractive AND who have matched me in intelligence is precisely one person in my whole life and years of dating, and he was an abusive arse. Some people are either not going to compromise and end up on their own (if you're looking in the 99th centile, your dating pool is already pretty small), or compromise on some other factor and marry an arse or someone they don't find attractive just to have children. Personally I just couldn't have sex with someone who was physically unappealing to me...but was willing to compromise on IQ. Sometimes I wonder if that was a mistake. He does drive me nuts.

OP you seem to have rattled the professionally offended, and despite stating several times you’re talking about population level the 6 kids and PhD crowd are out to prove you wrong. It’s actually a very interesting topic academically and something I’ve often pondered.

I think the issue is around what we consider intelligence as, I’m starting to believe it’s an outdated concept as more and more evidence seems to suggest that there are several ways of being (analytical, academic, emotional), and people generally fall into one of these pots with greater or lesser success.

I’m not particularly academic (very average 2:1 albeit from a top 5 university), but very analytical, I consider things in an unusual amount of depth. Despite being recognised as being a ‘high achiever’, I’ve struggled to progress to where I’d like in my career because I lack the emotional intelligence to manage others, I’m often frustrated when people don’t operate in the way I do and end up taking on too much of the workload rather than supporting them to grow.

I’ve made the decision not to have children, it’s been a source of anxiety to me for many years as I couldn’t square the societal push to have children with the potential negative effect on my health, career, finances, relationships etc. Having finally come to the decision not to have them it feels like a huge weight has lifted off me.

Thanks for the interesting thread, there’s few in here that catch my attention these days.

It's interesting that national IQ is falling. I know the mother's intelligence is meant to be the main predictor of child's intelligence. Is this being diluted if the childcare is being done by less intelligent child care workers or the father?

I'd like to think of myself as intelligent OP - two degrees, a masters degree and professional charter ship with a Director level role in a large business.
I honestly did struggle with my first as found may leave quite boring and not challenging the old brain cells. But it's how you frame this mentally. First of all it's important to get ones stick out of ones arse and just go with the flow of bonding supporting and nurturing these little bundles of absolute gorgeousness. You don't get the feedback that you do from work as a high performer, but there's nothing more grounding that a toddles screaming at you for giving them peas instead of beans.

I can't see how it makes a difference. You either really want children or you don't. Plenty of non academics don't want children either.

I wonder how things would pan out if all women were able to have as many or as few children as they wanted. The impact on career and finances is surely a limiting factor. Would you have more children if these were not an issue? For me it’s not a factor: I’ve never wanted children and even if all circumstances were ideal, the wish has just never been there.

The thread yesterday mentioned the “biological urge” or the “expectation” of having kids. I had both tbh but the rational, intelligent side of myself reasoned back that I’d actually hate it. No regrets at all.