It is harder to have a family the more intelligent you are?

[TheTribe]

I remember reading that more intelligent women are not having children. Is this choice or not do you think? Should we be encouraging smart people to have children in some way? I saw idiocracy...

www.mic.com/articles/58579/women-without-children-aren-t-selfish-they-re-smart

I think this thread is a perfect example of why we need to teach kids in school that anecdotal evidence isn't the same as quantitative analysis. (I'm particularly looking at @gingerbreadsprinkle here).

Yes, lots of posters know lots of bright women with kids, Cherie Booth, blah blah. We KNOW lots of intelligent women choose to have kids. The question the OP is asking is why intelligent women are less likely to have DC. There is a statistical correlation between childlessness and intelligence whether you want there to be or not (for the record I'm quite bright, Oxbridge etc., have one DC and desperate for more).

I don't know the answer to the question, but it does merit further investigation.

All this thread proves is that you can’t have an intellectual conversation on MN because the majority of users don’t understand that anecdotes don’t disprove statistics (which possibly answers the question!)

I don’t think intelligence is something that is defined by career/job, income or IQ. It’s literally the ability to think, to question, to argue and see both sides of an issue. Add in emotional intelligence, and on balance, I think that yes, intelligent women who think things through analytically rather than being swayed by emotion are less likely to have children, because in black and white terms having children is terrible for women and the planet. For men and the human race it’s great; not so much for women.

Intelligence gives you choices and options. With intelligence you can choose education or not. You can choose a traditional high flying career or choose to do something different, maybe entrepreneurial or creative. You can choose a big family a small family or none at all.
Statistically every time there’s a new plausible option the probability of the others goes down.
I dint see why anyone is surprised that an intelligent woman with many possible rewarding life paths is less likely to choose one of them than a woman without options.

Possibly women who are smarter are more likely to have interesting and challenging jobs and higher incomes (note: generally, not always) and may believe they have more to lose by having children

So I can only comment on my own situation. I'm 37 in a couple of weeks and we haven't started TTC yet though we really need to.

I'm the main breadwinner by quite a long way compared to my DH. I met him later and so we've had the expense of a wedding and first house in the past 18 months.

We really want to TTC but I'm a freelancer/contractor and so have no enhanced maternity pay. We have savings but only enough for me to take max 4 months off on mat leave.

My main worry though is that I have a contract due to finish between end October and end of year and I won't get hired if I'm obviously pregnant. As I work through a limited company I have no protection from discrimination on the basis of me being pregnant. This could then potentially use up all our savings if I'm out of work which would then mean I have to give birth and get a job straight away. Added on top of all that I have bipolar disorder and so expect the hormones/sleep deprivation to be relatively hard on me.

There's no point in me going back to perm roles as in my industry you normally have to do 2 years before qualifying for enhanced maternity pay.

Complex situation but in summary - because I'm the breadwinner it's a lot more difficult for us to have children.

If DH could get pregnant we'd probably have two by now!

I disagree that there is a correlation between womens intelligence and being less likely of having a child because the measure of intelligence is fundamentally flawed by basing it on educational attainment. It should be properly expressed in terms of the higher the education, the less likely a woman willing have a child. This is because higher education depends on opportunity and class moreso than raw intelligence.

Very interesting thread, OP. I think there are several factors at play here:

1. As others have said, educated, intelligent women have successful, rewarding careers, which they’re unwilling to sacrifice for children

1. They might read books like “Shattered - Modern Motherhood and the illusion of equality”, in which the author articulately explains how and why women are still landed with the lion’s share of the childcare and think “That is ludicrously unfair, as my career is just as successful and well remunerated as my partner’s (perhaps moreso). Nope, not for me”.

1. Young children can be dull and caring for them can be isolating and lonely: a real mental health risk for anyone, but particularly for someone used to (and who requires) mental and intellectual stimulation in a probably demanding role.

I disagree that there is a correlation between womens intelligence and being less likely of having a child

Isn't the correlation actually with levels of education? That seems quite feasible - girls who got pregnant at school we not encouraged to come back and do A-levels, so they're already shut out from the option of university and careers in the high -flying, high-salary sectors, at least by the traditional routes. Plus education means a woman is more likely to be aware of contraception or to have the ability to find out, so make informed choices about how and when she has children.

What I find curious is that in my own circles, the more intelligent women tend to be the ones who genuinely don't like children, don't like interacting with them, don't coo over babies etc. It's like there is a certain type of person who is just completely unmaternal and they in my experience also tend to be smart.

I feel that everyone has a choice in whether or not to have a family .However many well educated women seem not to want children until later on or not at all.Having said that ,many women who are intelligent do have families!,Teachers,Nurses,need a degree .Higher up professional ladies can surely afford Nannies,The best nurseries and so on.Surely Womens Liberation in the 60s/ 70s set a path for women to "have it all"?.Or maybe its a big lie!.I like Lucy Worsley and think she s a wonderful historian ,but there are many examples of other famous females ie Dr Alice Roberts (3 children),Fiona Shackleton(lawyer for Paul Mc Cartney)2 children ,Helena Kennedy 3children and so on .I dont think anyone is "educated out " of having children its a personal choice at the end of the day.On a personal note I have always struggled with Maths and although I have GCE "O" levels .Never passed that one.My son however has a B grade at A level ,And a Masters degree in Chemistry!

It has been my anecdotal experience that more intelligent and educated women breed later, lesser or not at all.

Personally I believe this is more driven by the fact that today's society makes it absolutely impossible to 'have it all' and if you've got an amazing aptitude for something it must be heartbreaking to have to step back from it to bury yourself in faeces and apricot puree.

From my perspective at least I think women who have achieved academically or are doing well in their careers have more to lose by having children which may explain why they tend not to.

This is the case for me, got an undergraduate degree, then a Master’s degree. Doing very well in my career. My colleagues who have had children have either never returned after Maternity Leave or have had to drop a day or two at work which means they’re out of the running for promotions etc which require full-time commitment. They’re always ducking out when children are sick or need collecting, rarely do over-time.

A man in the same position academically/career wise likely wouldn’t feel the same impact of children as women tend to take the brunt of the responsibility.

It could be interesting thread, but it is more,likely to turn into the usual childless/free women bashing from a small number of parents who can't cope with the idea that some people can't have/don't want children.

Therefore if you're an intelligent woman in a well paid, professional role the pool of men who are likely to be attractive to you is much smaller
I see this playing a big role, definitely. Childless female colleagues tend not only to be childless, but also single.
Some friends started settling down with men significantly below them in terms of attainment, education and intelligence. I totally cannot understand how some couplings work on the daily basis (like a pediatric surgeon marrying a taxi driver, or a university lecturer marrying a general labourer), and they are very dismissive of their partners behind their backs, almost like they are pets, not human.

I think a lot are choosing 1 or 2 or having fertility issues so having fewer than wanted.
2 maternity and labour care in uk is horriffic. No pain relief.
Then Prolapses, bladder/bowel issues. Then pressureto bf so no sleep for years.
3 possibly intelligent kids are harder to raise. They question /challenge/defy. Hide/run off. So why would you want 10 like this to look after.
4 gov policy encouraged with TC people to have more and more dc.
5 those extra 3-4 fertile years while at uni is potentially 1 less child and fewer relationship where you may choose kids together.

However imo we need to bring child rearing age back down to at least ttc by 30. As we are ending up with more child free not by choice and ivf.

I think people meeting at work and uni has meant more equal couples so those kids are more intelligent. But they have fewer kids. But that leaves the lower 'iq' together too. And they have more kids.
Having kids later probably means more sen.
A more global world means you may meet someone with similar strengths or weaknesses and this can lead to kids with great strengths and weaknesses.
Possibly more intelligent understand risk better. So 1% chance of birth defects. Becomes 10% over 10 kids. And understand if that happens it is very expensive to parents, you cant work. The child may never grow up or move out.

I mightconsider more kids if we could have a nice placid one.

I'm extremely intelligent, IQ wise anyway. Scholarships, awards, special programmes, all that jazz.

I also have a number of mental health difficulties that have affected me in relationships. Diagnosed dyspraxia and the suspicion that other diagnoses like ASD or sensory processing disorder MAY come out if I can be bothered to pursue them, which I can't.

I expect my high intelligence is somehow linked to these.

These difficulties haven't stopped me having a marriage and children but I can see they have brought emotional, communicative and organisational problems I have had to work extremely hard to overcome.

In the example in the OP I suspect that some people are not having children because they are focused on other plans instead.

You can always absolutely guarantee in threads discussing intelligence, there will be people who take broad population statistics personally. And lo and behold, we have people taking offence that they have six children so must be stupid, but OH LOOK, they have a degree etc.

Far be it from me to call such people unintelligent, but their preference for anecdata over statistics tells its own story.

My parents are both highly intelligent (mum interviewed for Cambridge at 16, dad got a scholarship having the some of the highest A level results in the country). I similarly received the highest A Level grades in the country in a couple of areas.

I am planning to have children. One, maybe two (familial disposition for twins).

@gingerbreadsprinkle - I'm not saying that the people you describe aren't intelligent, but it seems to me that you're conflating ambition and achievement with intelligence. I'm no entrepeneur, but I have dispositions that have served me very well in employment after my degree. Intelligence doesn't neatly correlate with the acquisitive desire for success you describe - where would we be in the world without the highly educated scientists who were more interested in learning and discovery than setting up a multi-million pound company off their own backs?

Plenty of opportunity for blatant boasting on the thread, anyway. 🙄

I mean I guess you could argue that it doesn't take any level of intelligence to make a baby, but you need some level of critical thinking if you make an informed decision whether to have a child?

Indeed piglet

Interesting thread.
Like some pps I think there is evidence (at a population level) that intelligent and well educated women may find it harder to get partners at the same level so this may contribute to them being more likely to be childless or having fewer children as they start later. Career pressures also have the same effect so even if they have a partner they may start reproducing later and have fewer children. Careers and money also bring women choices they may not feel they had in th past and so there are many who make a positive choice not to have children.

Interestingly someone suggested it may also relate to class with women from upper class backgrounds having multiple children even if they are highly educated/intelligent. No idea if this is true but if so it could be that they don't have to worry about having their careers as a safety net in the same way as women who have worked their way up the class ladder.

Intelligence falling at a societal level? I didn't realise this was the case. If so is it because of the lower birth rate of highly educated women?

@thecatsthecats, presumably you do realise the irony of your bemoaning the preponderance of “anecdata” on the thread and then proceeding to relate your own personal circumstances (which is, of course, anecdotal).

Atm I know a handful of women (including me) who are all trudging through 2nd degrees/MScs/PhDs while at the pg/baby/small DC stage.

Everyone of us is stressed to our eyeballs

Maybe we are all book smart but lack common sense?

I don't know, me and my best friend talk about it a lot, we didn't want being mums getting in the way of our educations, and men do it so we're going to do it too!

I've always wanted DC, felt physically broody from early 20s, and generally like kids not just my own. So for me at least it wasn't a 'society says you must do this' thing.

Isn't it also how you measure intelligence? Say that having certain jobs requires intelligence, and those jobs are also mentally demanding. Then it will look like there is a correlation between being intelligent and having no children. When really, for all you know, the woman who took a less demanding job to look after her kids might be a genius - its just that her job doesn't present opportunities to demonstrate her genius.

Purely anecdotally, most of the intelligent women I know have children (and demanding academic jobs) but in most cases they had them later in life. And have partners that pull their weight.

thecatsthecats

I'm using a different measure of intelligence that lots of people don't like here. The concept of intelligence is subjective IMO. If people want to assert that higher education equals decreased fertility then that's fine but I do not agree that higher education equals intelligence. As I said up thread, higher education to me, means hard work and good memorisation skills. I also don't care for all the people taking that opinion personally. You can definitely be formally educated and intelligent, but many people with degrees cannot handle real world issues.

If they want them they can have them. I have 5, earn a fair bit (enough to pay 5 sets of school fees etc) and the career/IQ/earnings are the reason I could afford so many!