It is harder to have a family the more intelligent you are?

[TheTribe]

I remember reading that more intelligent women are not having children. Is this choice or not do you think? Should we be encouraging smart people to have children in some way? I saw idiocracy...

www.mic.com/articles/58579/women-without-children-aren-t-selfish-they-re-smart

i’d imagine it has something to do with the smartest women getting onto difficult career paths that are hard to balance with children

And also the more intelligent people generally are better able to rationalise and not I’ve into emotions like ‘wanting a baby to love you’.

Actually I think it's a really interesting question.

I know women with lots of children who have really hard lives that I know would make me really depressed. They're not unintelligent but they are not especially analytical and have a kind of oblivious air about them.

Because whether it suits your world view or not, there is a strong correlation between the two. That isn't to say that it always holds true, but at population level it is highly relevant.

There is a perceived correlation but it is not true. I have seen far too many people of my generation (millennial) fall for this lie, go to university, and become underemployed with lots of debt. The people who are successful are the ones who choose to go against what was mainstream and took up a trade or other technical licensure, then started a business. These people are far more intelligent, usually are grounded in real life mathematics and science, and apply it daily. The ones who succeeded in "formal education" needed a hefty dose of nepotism to see them through the start of their careers and are definitely not more intelligent than the individuals who are self-made. It is arrogance to believe that a university degree = intelligence.

The real question is: are more intelligent men being educated out of the same choice? Unlikely. The childless female barrister is quite likely to be working with senior male barristers who will have kids at home - being raised by his female partner. We are not being educated out of children as such (although there is a strong correlation between higher education and smaller families), but social business structures are not supportive of mothers.

Basically, to get a high career status, we are expected to act as men, with the resulting hit on family life.

As has been mentioned I don’t think only educated or highly educated people are intelligent. But there is s correlation. I also wonder that very intelligent men don’t seem to have the same phenomena or at least I’ve not seen any studies.

From an evolutionary point of view, and any experts please correct me intelligence, beauty or any other attribute is only beneficial if it increases your ability to survive so you procreate and pass your genes on. A successful species is one that can adapt and continue. If intelligence is at least part nature then to me it is a shame many do not pass on such abilities. I also wonder what society would look like if women (and men) valued intelligence more.

@gingerbreadsprinkle clearly knows what she’s talking about due to the repeated use of the word “licensure” (even though it doesn’t exist outside North America)

I don't believe it is true, TheTribe. Don't we all know enough intelligent, professional women who have children? In my experience, they tend to have more than average!

It's really not worth thinking about a report based on a statistic which may change at any time. I do not, however, think it was unreasonable of you to start this thread because it is quite interesting.

I think many confuse success with intelligence. Financial success is what many people value the most (and for obvious reasons) but isn’t really what I’m thinking about. I think there is value (if not monetary) in being curious in the world and/or having the ability to process it easily.

www.forbes.com/sites/keldjensen/2012/04/12/intelligence-is-overrated-what-you-really-need-to-succeed/amp/

“If intelligence is at least part nature then to me it is a shame many do not pass on such abilities”

Well there’s nothing to be done. My dad’s three sisters didn’t have children and they are from a country where there was more social pressure. Dad had two daughters, neither of us want children.

My aunties are some of the most intelligent and brave women I know. Their work has included running domestic violence shelters. If people don’t want to, they don’t want to. I think it’s good because there is such a problem with overpopulation.

I think we will see more men wanting to be single and child free as well.

I think society values intelligence already.

I've actually thought about this in terms of myself a lot. Similarly with relationships. My IQ has been officially measured at 176, and I feel like your question relates to life in general, and not necessarily having children.

In a nutshell, people who think, find life more difficult in general.

Of course, IQ doesn't take a lot of factors into account, and in many ways is flawed in the way it is measured, so that is also something additional to think about when speaking of "intelligence"

So only stupid people have large families?

I have 6. I also started having them young.
I have recently completed my PGCE. I might have done things in a different order to most others, but I don't think any of the above means I am not intelligent. ( although I suppose it is arguable that getting pg accidentally, and then keeping the baby at 14 were not the actions of a clever person??)

Well I'm highly educated and well above average intelligence, but I have 1 child and 1 on the way.

Helena Morrissey has what... 9 children?
Nicola Horlick has 4 (living), I think.
Cherie Booth has 4.
Yvette Cooper has 3.
Sally Davies has 2.
Marina Wheeler has 4.
Mishal Husain has 3.
Jo Rowling has 3.
Madonna has (I lose count).
I dunno, plenty of exceptions to "the rule" !

I do think this is interesting, even though I can see it's a question with a lot of tensions bound up in it. I certainly agree that there are problems with associating educational level or types of job with intelligence. I'm educated but not super-super intelligent.

But, if we're going with educational level, my mum and I both have doctorates and we talk about this quite a lot. I think (and she thinks) that small children are really intellectually fascinating. I can see how if you're not particularly interested in analysing people/thought processes, you might get bored with a toddler. OTOH, I think it's very absorbing parenting if you're able to engage on lots of different levels, thinking about what the child's doing and being really interested in how they do it.

I don't buy that intelligence has anything to do with rationalising emotion, thought. I have known some scarily intelligent people whose emotional reasoning was shite. And I don't see the issue, either. Personally, I am delighted to have a toddler and hugely enjoy the whole-hearted way she doesn't judge and does love me - though I am also well aware I stand somewhere below teddy, Assan from nursery, and next door's cat, in the pecking order.

I really do think a big issue is simply social pressure, which I don't think acts according to intelligence, but according to class bias. I've always wanted kids; DP didn't want them until quite recently. But I'm middle-class and went to university, and so until my mid-to-late 20s, people were constantly telling me anxiously I was far too young to think about children and pressuring me not to have them. Having kids aged below about 22 would have been seen as really a 'failure'. By contrast, DP was expected to have children. 16 would have been seen as worryingly young, but 20 would have been perfectly respectable, and by the time she was 23 or 24, it was semi-expected. By the time she was 35 and pregnant, some people considered that almost indecent.

We are both fairly intelligent women, both degree educated, and both worked in similar jobs until recently. The big difference is the attitudes of people to a 'working class' girl from a council house, and a 'middle class' girl who wasn't. Anyone who thinks those attitudes don't follow you well into adulthood is kidding themselves.

clearly knows what she’s talking about due to the repeated use of the word “licensure” (even though it doesn’t exist outside North America)

Was that supposed to be your gotcha moment? Hilarious because I've said numerous times that I am an American who lives in the UK. And yes, there are different kinds of IT "licence" (hope that makes your pettiness feel better) that British people go for and make a success out of! I guess you've never been in any sort of headspace that would make you know about network engineers, virtualisation, automation, cloud engineers etc who are employed due to licence not degree!

My mental capacity has definitely decreased since having children. I think I'd have a much higher iq right now had i not spent the last ten years lookubgvafter children.
I no longer read, I don't have as many stimulating conversations, I don't go to the theatre or watch films. All things I used to do regularly.
So maybe it's just that child free women have more chance to develop and exercise their brain, as most men ( even those with children) also do.

So only stupid people have large families?

I don't think that but I do wonder if people with large families are not very analytical. I'm only suggesting that because I would find having a large family very hard work and because I analyse everything deeply, I can imagine becoming very overwhelmed and miserable. I think being slightly oblivious and not thinking too deeply would make it more bearable for me.

It’s multifaceted, but in addition to the issues already raised, I’d wager the more intelligent a woman is the more likely she is to recognise societal sexism, gender roles and the like and be able to analyse whether she wants to conform. Having children does conform, mostly because society looks down on mothers generally (as reflected in pay, opportunities, care etc.) particularly when compared to men. Those who are less intelligent are more likely to follow the expected life pattern of marriage/babies.

In addition, I think the more intelligent a person, the more they are aware (and care) about environmental issues, and have a greater understanding of the damage reproduction (on the scale of humans) has done to our planet and other species. Furthermore, I think those who do understand this are far more likely to feel humans are not better/more deserving/intrinsically smarter than other human beings, and due to this awareness may be less inclined to contribute to the global issue of over/reproduction. In addition, this awareness, this ability to think beyond the self, could also lead to empathy towards potential future offspring in terms of the opportunities (or lack thereof) afforded to them, perhaps coming to the conclusion they wouldn’t want to bring their children into this world.

I think the more intelligent a person is the more likely they are to adopt rather than give birth (assuming they want kids at all) too. It would be an interesting investigation nonetheless.

Frankly, there are very few logical reasons to have offspring and very many logical reasons not to. Logic and intelligence often sit together.

Not trying to pit anyone against anyone. Just curious. Also to me it is a shame if a segment of society are not carrying on arguably favourable attributes for any other reason than choice. Choice is a curious thing though and usually influenced by society.

Woah! If you carry on with this line of reasoning you are veering dangerously into the realm of eugenics.

Anecdotal obviously but my friends, family, colleagues and I are all very well educated, intelligent professionals and we all have children.

Of course very intelligent women are having children. It’s not a rule but rather a trend... a percentage are not having any.

Marshmellow91 do you think you have found relationships harder because of this? I suppose if you don’t think about things in the same way as your peers it may be.

It may not be logical for the individual but is the paradox that on a group level it may be more beneficial for the prudent/ thoughtful ones to have children?

To elaborate because part of what I said wasn’t very clear: society looks down on mothers because the job isn’t seen as particularly important, but recognises, perversely, the need for offspring. Women are therefore encouraged to reproduce. And it generally also (conveniently) keeps them in a box. Less intelligent women would more likely conform to their expected lot in life.

It is a very well known phenomenon that as education in countries becomes more accessible to women, the birth rate falls.

This has been known for many years - this study is from 1987, for example: www.jstor.org/stable/2947826?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Another more modern (2016) study: wol.iza.org/uploads/articles/228/pdfs/female-education-and-its-impact-on-fertility.pdf

The reasons behind this are vast and complex, and vary from place to place, but in general it is often ascribed to women having more choice in what to do with their lives.

I don't think it is harder for more intelligent or educated women to have families, but trends at a global population level suggest that the more educated you are, the more likely you are to have a smaller family or no children.

@solittletime - oh, so true!