To think medicine isn't a great career choice

[Medicmog]

Growing up, I dreamed of being a doctor. I was bright and motivated, and worked hard at school, and did lots of volunteering, extra curricular activities, and work experience, to gain admission to medical school. It was encouraged by my school and parents, as something worthwhile to aspire to.

I worked hard to complete six years of medical school, while non-medical friends graduated after three or four years and walked into highly paid jobs (generally £40k+). Two or three extra years studying, and I started on little over half this (plus an antisocial hours allowance on some jobs). Fine, I never went into medicine for the money.

What I find difficult is that doctors (and moreover all public sector workers) are so vulnerable due to current politics, public confidence in the progression is at an all time low, bullying in the progression is rife, and it is such an absolutely thankless job, where your employer treats you appallingly.

I have been injured at work, due to my workplaces negligence, and they illegally docked my pay subsequently, despite my continued working. I have been sick, and had consultants say they don't care about occupational health recommendations.

I had a serious illness, and when I emailed work, together with a sick note, I was told that it would be a great inconvenience, and to get back as soon as possible.

I have felt unwell at work and told that I wasn't allowed to sit down.

I have been shouted at and bullied by colleagues.

I have been threatened by patients and relatives.

I have been pressured to do physical work while pregnant that endangered my health.

When I went on maternity leave I didn't get so much as an email wishing me well, let alone a card.

My children have suffered from the long antisocial hours, including the significant amount of unpaid overtime I have done.

I'm at breaking point, and genuinely dreading going back to work after maternity leave. Why would I want to leave my baby, in order to pay more for childcare than I earn, and be treated like shit?

I realise this is a self indulgent post, but in some ways it is cathartic to share. I wouldn't ever recommend someone to join this profession, and I think young people considering it should be given a balanced perspective.

www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/london-research-director-salary-SRCH_IL.0,6_IM1035_KO7,24.htm

Here you go Medicmog

Like I say, 10-15 years to get to this level would be standard.

Ive tried not to comment on the earnings side of things as I know OP didn't want it to be about that. But of my Dh's circle of Uni friends (they all still keep in touch and meet up regularly), he as a hospital consultant earns the least. The rest of them went into business/ banking/ finance.
People have this image of Doctors being super rich and living luxurious lifestyles. I wonder if that is a legacy from days gone by when traditionally Doctors came from wealthy families? In other words it was family money that funded their lifestyles and big houses. My dh still has colleagues whose houses were bought by their parents, or whose kids have all been to private school funded by the grandparents. These days more and more Doctors are coming from working class backgrounds (including dh), so they have massive student debts and no big fat deposit for property.

sooty that is actually reassuring, which speciality does he work in? The reality of a consultant job is very different to work as an SHO. A lot of posters have come on to say that being a consultant isn't all it once was either, so I think it depends on speciality.

Missy that's an interesting point. Certainly a lot of people on my course had houses bought for them by their parents. Family money is common, which can contribute towards public perception of relative wealth.

I hate it when FY1 salaries are compared to new grads from other courses. Medicine is a 5/6 year course, so the equivalent of 3 years post graduation salary wise for other professions. This is without including the 2 years of not only no pay, but fees!

Say a new graduate starts on 30k. They will earn 3x30k = 90k (assuming no salary increases during that time) before the doctor has even graduated, whilst the doctor will have incurred extra debt due to fees and living costs. How long would it take you to save up 90k whilst working? This is how far behind doctors are just at the very start of their career.

Laurie it appears you have quoted an exceptionally lowly paid job. This is my no means standard.

I'm amazed at people being so shocked at graduates earning £40k.

Think of the calibre of student that gets into Med school (my little sister got 3 A*s and still had to go to her last choice due to rejection from all med schools - she ended up studying Chemistry at a Russell Group Uni. She's now a very happy freelance TV producer as it happens.

Yes it's unusual for an Arts degree from an ex-poly, but most med students would otherwise walk into a competitive course an Oxbridge/Russell Group unis and do very well out of it.

My GP surgery publishes their average salaries on their website. My school drop out husband, who has no A levels (despite being a very bright cookie) far out earned them by 30 working in IT in financial services. There are consultants where I work with Psychology degrees from normal Unis who, 10 years into their career, earn comparable salaries.

I think doctors are shockingly underpaid. I have friends of friends who were junior doctors as we were all a couple of years into work and heard horror stories of hellish conditions, bullying, 80+ hour weeks...all for what is a very unimpressive pay packet.

Even if we ignore the pay disparity for similarly educated graduates (I wonder what the average salary 3 years post qualification of those with 4 A grades + at A level is...), we are still left with working environment.

I fully accept that highly paid jobs such as those in magic circle firms require equivalent, if not worse, hours however these are balanced by perks. These might include: a desk of your own, a taxi home if you finish at 2am, subsidised lunch in a canteen or food provided if you work out of hours, a locker for your belongings, a place that’s nice to shower if you cycle into work, a computer of your own (no queuing around one and waiting 10 mins for someone to finish requesting bloods before you can look at an x ray) etc etc etc. I do not think these should be luxuries. They are basic.

sooty you say you were paid £15k as a law graduate. I’m just wondering if you’re including your training contract pay in that? Or law school? When do you count your ‘graduate’ pay from? Presumably not from immediately post law degree.

YANBU

My lovely cousin is an almost qualified GP- during her training she has had 2 babies

She seems very happy now with her career, but in the earlier years doing the hospital on-calls with nights, weekends and evenings while trying to juggle one young baby plus her DH working an equally busy job, she seriously thought about quitting.

The saviour for her, she says, was reducing her hours to work less than full time. This allowed her to have the family time she was missing out on and continue her training.

www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Human_Resources_(HR)_Director/Salary/5316d230/London

Ok then, here’s a HR director.

Earlier in the thread you were telling me director level roles were ‘exceptional and highly paid career paths’ (paraphrasing)

So which is it?

Laurie I wonder if HR and medicine are equivalent roles. Do you know the average A level requirements for university courses leading to each job? (this is an honest question and not meant to be sarky )

sooty I have just put that into an online inflation calculator and it suggests that 27k in 2001 is the equivalent of £43,866 today. That is a fair bit more than FY1s earn even allowing for maximal banding. Were you also sponsored through law school?

I do accept that your hours were likely comparable (if not worse), but I reject the idea that newly qualified doctors are earning extra from locuming/overtime. Yes, some do take an F3 year and do so but this is at the expense of career progression.

Additionally, newly qualified doctors are definitely not under the same pension schemes as your husband likely was. These have been phased out - definitely no final salary (or even close) for us! I think this is part of the issue - people assume that because they knew one older doctor who got xyz perks that this is also given to newly qualified/junior doctors. This is just not the case, sadly.

I hate that these threads always end up talking about the salary, many of my non-medic friends are on more than me, many are on less. Before I quit my salary was adequate for my lifestyle (although I don't live in London which helps!).

The guilt got me in the end. The constant nagging guilt that despite working 10+ hours without a break there was still 100+ jobs on the handover board (plus new bleeps every ten minutes or so) meaning I couldn't give the level of care I wanted to give. The constant feeling that you're letting nursing colleagues down as they can't do X, Y or Z for their patients until you've put in a cannula/prescribed something but you have to prioritise the sickest patients so those sort of jobs keep getting pushed down the list. Listening to patients who have been sat for hours waiting to see a doctor who are quite rightly upset and angry and you don't have the time to sit and talk properly. Not having the time some patients need to open up about really personal things or even to have a bit of a chat around taking their blood etc to get to know them. The look on your colleague's face at handover when you give them the same list of 100+ jobs you started with that you just haven't got round to as you're too busy firefighting. Not going off sick (even when you really need to) as you know that it just means one of your colleagues will have to stay late/cover for you. The vast majority of us do care but the system doesn't let you.

Add in the constant hoop jumping for your eportfolio, constant paperwork, the fact that to a lot of management you are just a slot on a rota (I've had annual leave cancelled at the last minute, leave denied to get married, random re-allocation of jobs meaning you're now placed 2 hours away from where you live, last minute rota changes etc) and having to always work defensively (the threat of complaints, litigation etc). It wasn't worth it. Couldn't even go part time as I didn't meet my deanery's criteria.

I'm still not completely sure what I'll do long term but I couldn't stay in clinical medicine, I couldn't keep doing a rubbish job for my patients despite working as hard as I could. I used to spend every morning fantasising about how I could injure myself on the way to work - could I 'slip' with the kettle and scald my hand, could I 'safely' crash the car. I'd do everything in my power to discourage my children from becoming doctors, with the current government in charge/Brexit etc it's only going to get worse as more and more people emigrate.

salacia I agree completely. It's not about the money, though it would be nice to be able to afford childcare.

Laurie I won't talk about salary anymore, other than to say what I have seen as typical (40k+ starting, rising quickly), is not unrealistic for bright girls individuals from a good university. I have mentioned average graduate to back this up.

It's about everything else, so much of which you have said. The workload, constant worry of making a mistake (and possibly end up being made a Scape goat with a gross negligence manslaughter conviction like Dr BG).

To be concise, it's about not being happy.

I have only stayed so far as I have no idea what else I would do. Medicine is such a bubble. I'm hoping that it all night be magically better when I return post maternity leave (and I have to, otherwise I have to repay my maternity pay). I know it's pretty unrealistic though.

Not a doctor, but a nurse practitioner and I completely get you. It’s all such thankless drudgery right now.

The A&E where I work was absolutely horrendous last night and I wondered to myself more than once if it’s worth this stress. There is no end or improvement in sight, and every shift leaves me feeling shellshocked afterwards. I get home and I need to stare at the wall and not do anything.

I’m considering my options.

sooty I suggest you read more about the case. There were systematic failures that led to the tragic death of a child. Focusing on blaming individual (s) rather than taking a systematic approach to improve patient safety is counterproductive. It prevents lessons from being learnt. If you learn more about the case, you will find it to be far more nuanced than you believe it to be currently.

I also never said what you have said as the second comment, and I find your wording crass.

sooty I misunderstood, but actually you were better off than I thought. You were actually paid 15k (equivalent to £25,500 today) for 2 years whilst I thought you were not paid at all.

So your earnings went: 1 year post graduation (no pay, law school) 2 years post graduation £25.5k today, 3 years post graduation £25.5k again. This equates to 51k total earnings 3 years post university.

Compare this to the £0 for medics at equivalent number of years training. You then moved on to be paid almost £44k at year 4. I can’t find exact average for fy1 pay, but the base pay is £27k and I have never heard of an FY1 paid more than £37k including banding. By 4 years post graduation a doctor is therefore £58-68k less well off than you.

I think it is best to compare years of training rather than perceived ‘usefulness’. The question pertains to pay for a given amount of training, work and intelligence.

Sorry to hear that queen of pain

I have seen as typical (40k+ starting, rising quickly), is not unrealistic for bright girls individuals from a good university.

I think you've a rather rose tinted view of this, but we've been over that again and again so not getting anywhere.

It's about everything else ...To be concise, it's about not being happy.

I said this upthread already, but if you're not happy I absolutely think you should leave. Life's too short.

And I think there are options, it will probably take a bit of time to investigate them thoroughly and work out what would be best for you.

Some of those options are probably within medicine (perhaps in another location) and some outside of it. I wonder if there's are knowledgeable independent careers advisers out there (I know of one, but her specialism would be rather different) who could help you figure this out.

There have been some suggestions on this thread (the pharmaceutical industry for example) which could work for you. Worth investigating. Even if you would be taking a pay cut to follow them, I agree that being happy is more important.

sooty I am shocked that you have come to that decision having read every transcript. It was her first day back from maternity leave. The computer systems were down. She was covering many more patients than she should have been. Two patients (both with DS, one with a DNR and one without IIRC) had switched bays without BG being informed. Additionally, the boy who sadly died had been given medication that (likely) contributed to his swift decline without her knowledge. It was also ruled that CPR would not have changed the outcome (i.e. he would have died with or without it).

I am not saying that she was blameless, but who can - hand on heart- say that they have never made a mistake at work? Never had an off day? Every doctor will make a mistake. It’s luck of the draw whether that results in a death or has no impact whatsoever.