To think medicine isn't a great career choice

[Medicmog]

Growing up, I dreamed of being a doctor. I was bright and motivated, and worked hard at school, and did lots of volunteering, extra curricular activities, and work experience, to gain admission to medical school. It was encouraged by my school and parents, as something worthwhile to aspire to.

I worked hard to complete six years of medical school, while non-medical friends graduated after three or four years and walked into highly paid jobs (generally £40k+). Two or three extra years studying, and I started on little over half this (plus an antisocial hours allowance on some jobs). Fine, I never went into medicine for the money.

What I find difficult is that doctors (and moreover all public sector workers) are so vulnerable due to current politics, public confidence in the progression is at an all time low, bullying in the progression is rife, and it is such an absolutely thankless job, where your employer treats you appallingly.

I have been injured at work, due to my workplaces negligence, and they illegally docked my pay subsequently, despite my continued working. I have been sick, and had consultants say they don't care about occupational health recommendations.

I had a serious illness, and when I emailed work, together with a sick note, I was told that it would be a great inconvenience, and to get back as soon as possible.

I have felt unwell at work and told that I wasn't allowed to sit down.

I have been shouted at and bullied by colleagues.

I have been threatened by patients and relatives.

I have been pressured to do physical work while pregnant that endangered my health.

When I went on maternity leave I didn't get so much as an email wishing me well, let alone a card.

My children have suffered from the long antisocial hours, including the significant amount of unpaid overtime I have done.

I'm at breaking point, and genuinely dreading going back to work after maternity leave. Why would I want to leave my baby, in order to pay more for childcare than I earn, and be treated like shit?

I realise this is a self indulgent post, but in some ways it is cathartic to share. I wouldn't ever recommend someone to join this profession, and I think young people considering it should be given a balanced perspective.

Yeah Darkstar!

You can pay people any money but if they are bullied their lives will be bleak.

dark star I respect that your experience has been different to mine. Can you contextualise yours, by adding your speciality and level of seniority? While it is good that some like you have a good experience, sadly mine seems to be not uncommon, judging by this thread.

To be forgotten what is unkind about that, is to say that anyone who chooses to change careers from medicine is a failure, which is clearly a rediculous assertion. Is anyone who ever makes a career change a failure, or just medics?

I don't think there can be anything much more unkind than saying 'no one wants a loser'.

I have made clear that I am dissatisfied with my current job due to organisational issues, not that I have to leave due to poor performance. I was accepted onto a highly competitive training programme, and could continue it if I wish.

I think the issues with our society are reflected in this thread - elements of race to the bottom, drag others down too, chronic underfunding, serious wasting of resources in pursuit of cheaper outcomes...

Biggest issue is house prices - previous generations of Drs and vets (and regional accountants and lawyers) all had nice houses. The people the current mid - late 30s would have looked at and thought 'I want to do the job you do' about. Now we're at that stage and that generation (now senior consultants, approaching retirement) have got the big detached house with a decent garden that they bought in their mid-late 30s, possibly earlier. My parents were accountants, mum stopped working when I was born. 4 bed new build detached in MK. DH's dad was an engineer, mum civil servant, 4 bed detached new build in Peterborough. Both bought 35 or so years ago on one salary. Not their first home. Neither set of parents had help from their parents to buy the houses! The medics we know of a similar generation have nice old farmhouses (not inherited).

Money isn't the biggest issue but having "enough" can reduce the stress - by being able to pay for help - flexible childcare, cleaning, ironing, cooking etc meaning you have more time with your children. Having the money for a house big enough to have a live in nanny/au pair meaning 2 inflexible on call rotas isn't a disaster. Being able to live somewhere you can sleep after a night shift...

I think that all the professions are being devalued - not just medicine - the former middle class professions are now closer to trades than to the rich.

With the resilience point - when you are 18 (or 23) and naive you believe you are willing to work silly hours to.do.what you love, to make a difference, to earn loads of money. I know I thought all nighters were exciting, back in my I want to be a city lawyer days. Reality was I hated London as a place to live and found that I hated the city work too. I'd done work experience and all the research, just realised I needed what I was doing to be more "real world" than multimillion dollar transactions could ever be! I would imagine that medics, however realistic and resiliant, get worn down by the realities of constant firefighting, struggling to do the best for their patients because of shortages of resources/time, frustration with the time wasted by not having prompt access to printers, computers, one little thing delaying discharge meaning a bed isn't free 5 hours before it could be, see outcomes worsened by long waiting times etc.

Nobody doubts your competence Medicmog.

Teddy isn't saying you are a failure. Teddy is giving you a window on to how some people in some areas of business think (or present themselves as thinking). It's very very different as a culture (though from what you say about the awful bullying, maybe it's no worse).

Anyway look, I've been bullied too and it's a really really hard time. I felt pretty indignant at the time- it wasn't what I deserved, nor what I'd been promised. It wasn't how I'd seen my career. i had a friend who was dying very young at the time and I used to think "why am I getting on this train to work in this job when I have choices my friend doesn't have?" I think maybe that's why apparently small details smart - they are symbolic of the corrosive nature of the job.

I really hope you can find another role, for a while at least, and wish you all the best. If it helps, I am now back in a job very similar to the one I was bullied out of but in a more senior role - it only took 16 years and I don't regret the time with the kids at all :)

tobeforgotten She hasn't answered why that would be thought of particularly of medics, or whether it is everyone changing career, nor clarified that this is the view of others, not hers. It came across as pretty crass.

I don't want to be a banker regardless.

No idea what I would do still, but the suggestions here have been eye opening.

Random I agree with you there. The public sector in general has been devalued hugely.

Medicmog, another career option is to get into some kind of medical teaching. Not necessarily academia which would require lots more further study and also seems to be shit as a career.

There are options in clinical skills teaching or simulation / resuscitation etc training. I have to say though that I think there are few at doctor level and most are either a secondment type thing or would be part of a job where you would still need to do a lot of clinical work on the side. It can also be hard to get into and lots of clinical teaching is actually unpaid.

Just wanted to give it as an option, even if not a realistic one for you currently. If you could manage a salary drop and were in the right place at the right time it might be possible to move sideways into teaching.

Should have been clearer, by medical I meant healthcare teaching rather than specifically teaching medical staff themselves (although that is also an option).

Medicmog Apologies if you have answered some of this already and I have missed it.

Are you going back to the same post following your mat leave - if yes can you talk to your TPD about moving to a different trust ( there does seem to be more option for this with flexible trainees) or even, depending where you live an inter deanery transfer if you feel really stuck.

There do seem to be some issues wth your colleagues - I have worked in hospital based medicine for a long time (in a busy department) and have not seen people treated like this when they are unwell. Yes if it's busy then someone else has to cover and that can be frustrating but usually junior doctors are a tight knit group and look out for each other. There does need to be some give and take.

There will always be the odd difficult or aggressive patient but often this comes from fear of what has been/might be diagnosed and can generally be diffused. The vast majority of patients just want someone to listen and help sort their medical problems and many (but not all) understand constraints in the system.

That said the biggest change in medicine over the last 15 years is expectation both from patients but also doctors. When you expect to leave at 7 and you finish at 6.30 thats a bonus but when you expect to go at 5 and are still there at 6 then it leads to resentment. There is a lot of current feeling that no one should stay beyond 5 - medicine is not a 9-5 job whatever the EWTD says and the mismatch between expectation and reality just causes further resentment.

I think it is still a great job if you are constitutionally suited - I personally couldn't work in finance ( would definitely not be suited to that and agree with PPs that all medics wouldn't sail into highly paid jobs ) Also agree that just because you did well at A levels that doesn't mean you will be good at everything - this is aimed at the thread in general not the OP

I do think all professions will have their downsides and you have to think seriously if medicine is for you but do talk to your TPD and any consultant you have got on well with during your training and ask for their frank opinion.

A fresh start at a different trust may change your mind, I would also think about whether going FT through training is an option - I had a brief stint at flexible training and all that happened was it took longer, I worked just as much and got paid less.

I really hope you can get some resolution, there is no doubt that small children make it difficult but it does get easier as they get older and you have more autonomy.

As A junior I spent a year working for a total wanker who was unbelievably rude and shouted at me repeatedly - I was talking to a colleague about this recently and he told me that at least I had learnt something from the grim experience i.e. how not to behave to juniors and patients ! I moved on on the rotation and all my other bosses were fine so worth not being too influenced by one post/team.

police I'm going to a different trust. By all accounts it is a better place to work at, so I am hopeful. Maybe it will be better.

I know what you are saying about working full time. I have found both ups and downs to ltft. For training opportunities it hasn't been great. I can't afford to work full time though as childcare is significantly more than my take home. This will improve as my children get older and more are in school/get free hours.

I'm not expecting to work in finance, I have zero interest in that, and neither would I expect to walk into a well paid job. It's not about that. I do just see relatives and friends who do it easily, so I think there are options in London.

YANBU
The only thing I’d say as a v grad entry junior medic is that compared to my much better paid prev professional job, medicine is much more interesting. You can’t underestimate the effect of boredom & pointlessness in a career. It is what you spend a large % of your waking hours doing & a pointless job is soul destroying. There’s so much purpose in medicine & can never be bored. I’d say def be part time after kids & take time out of programme if you need. Full on training & service provision isn’t much fun when so many other pulls on your time.

Ps prev career paid so much more than being a doctor & all exams easy & paid for (as was many weeks of study leave & exam prep courses) rather than £400-500 per MRCP/MRCS exam that takes several attempts & 6m revision at a time to pass.

Hi @Medicmog
I haven’t read the whole thread but just wanted to voice my support! As an ST3 things are finally improving for me in terms of quality of work and work/life balance... I really do love my job now, but FY/CMT was a hard slog - wouldn’t have survived those years if it weren’t for the hope of leading to something better.

I’m training LTFT in a specialty that’s clinic-based and we have a great TPD who prioritises training over service provision. Not to say it doesn’t get hectic - it still does - but in general it’s not as exhausting as some other specialties and I’m very grateful. Definitely feel the worst is behind me. But agree that consultants in the NHS are not treated nearly as well as they should be!

@Teddybear45 - how many medic turned city workers have you come across to make a comment like that? It's ridiculous to imply that doctors wanting a career change do not have the communication and leadership skills just because they are academically able. Those are core skills to being a doctor.

I work with 2 city workers turned medics though and they are both very happy to have switched so isn't all bad

Thank you for the supportive messages, and reassurance that it does often get better.

I'm hoping that restarting work in a new location will be the change that I need. I'm going to suspend investigating a new career for now.

YB you are totally right. It is a privilege to support people at some of the most difficult times of their lives.

Don’t blame you Op
My daughter wanted to go into medicine. However, after researching ,,she has decided to go into dentistry because she ‘wants a life’
The doctors who are enjoying the job are the ones who work for agencies