To think medicine isn't a great career choice

[Medicmog]

Growing up, I dreamed of being a doctor. I was bright and motivated, and worked hard at school, and did lots of volunteering, extra curricular activities, and work experience, to gain admission to medical school. It was encouraged by my school and parents, as something worthwhile to aspire to.

I worked hard to complete six years of medical school, while non-medical friends graduated after three or four years and walked into highly paid jobs (generally £40k+). Two or three extra years studying, and I started on little over half this (plus an antisocial hours allowance on some jobs). Fine, I never went into medicine for the money.

What I find difficult is that doctors (and moreover all public sector workers) are so vulnerable due to current politics, public confidence in the progression is at an all time low, bullying in the progression is rife, and it is such an absolutely thankless job, where your employer treats you appallingly.

I have been injured at work, due to my workplaces negligence, and they illegally docked my pay subsequently, despite my continued working. I have been sick, and had consultants say they don't care about occupational health recommendations.

I had a serious illness, and when I emailed work, together with a sick note, I was told that it would be a great inconvenience, and to get back as soon as possible.

I have felt unwell at work and told that I wasn't allowed to sit down.

I have been shouted at and bullied by colleagues.

I have been threatened by patients and relatives.

I have been pressured to do physical work while pregnant that endangered my health.

When I went on maternity leave I didn't get so much as an email wishing me well, let alone a card.

My children have suffered from the long antisocial hours, including the significant amount of unpaid overtime I have done.

I'm at breaking point, and genuinely dreading going back to work after maternity leave. Why would I want to leave my baby, in order to pay more for childcare than I earn, and be treated like shit?

I realise this is a self indulgent post, but in some ways it is cathartic to share. I wouldn't ever recommend someone to join this profession, and I think young people considering it should be given a balanced perspective.

I meant pharmaceutical company rather than pharmacy company!!!

@MoseShrute - I think there is something to what you are saying about selection. I’m one of those who was fine with the academic side and actually fine at simulation, ALS, but not decisive and too anxious... I don’t really know how you would select - perhaps by making it modular so you do phlebotomy and basic personal care and then add more clinical judgement as you go?

I guess I only know one side of it though. There are some people who have really struggled with the academic aspect - like post-grad exams.

its very strange how medical staff are treated when they are sick
Hell yeah! Tell me about it! When dh got a serious diagnosis his own colleagues were at best indifferent and at worst downright nasty. Occupational Health insisted he came off the on call rota and boy that pissed them off. It’s as if they’ve decided he’s no longer part of the team now, he’s ignored, isolated, and talked down to like he’s an idiot. So much for the caring profession, when it’s one of their own they don’t seem to give a flying fuck.

while non-medical friends graduated after three or four years and walked into highly paid jobs (generally £40k+

What were these highly paid jobs?

missy it's like there is this strange believe that medics don't become sick, which is rediculous, as we are people just like everyone else.

Fedup I see this has been seized on, when it isn't central to the story in any way. I said up thread which sectors. It's not unusual at all. Massively outing, but the average graduate from my university is £37k in the first year after graduating.

Jobs in finance, some law and some software/engineering pay grads £40k (including bonus).

People are going to say that not ALL or even the majority of grad jobs pay this. I guess then you would have to study salaries of graduates from similar unis, with similar degree (if intercalated), a levels and gcses as medicine has higher requirements than many (though not all) courses.

Medics do not hit £40k until about year 3 or 4 post graduation. They have higher debt due to longer study time.

Really sad to hear to some of the stories here. I work for two Dr's really good people - one a Consultant the other a GP.
I've seen them both break down and cry with tiredness/ stress on numerous occasions. They both squeeze family life round their jobs - it's just not right medics are treated so poorly.
I have an academically able child - I pray she never says she wants to do medicine.
Thank you to you all who stick it out in the NHS

therollingcrone to be fair, if she is willing to move abroad medicine probably isn't such a bad option.

It's really sad that the NHS treats its staff so badly: it just means that UK trained HCP (whose training was costly) are moving abroad and benefitting another country. Great for Australia and New Zealand.

Maybe young medics reckon their chance of having the family they want if they wait until they make consultant is pretty low so they just get on with it.

But that’s the thing - it doesn’t really work so IS a choice, you can’t have it all no matter your sex. Women have to choose whether to be in an untenable situation OR wait and risk not being able to have kids at all or the number they want. Men have to choose whether to start a family and virtually never see the kids for several years. Not sure where this concept of being able to have it all has come from as it was never expected like it seems to be with people coming through now.

Not sure why people think this is specific to medicine either. Of the people I went through school with at least half went into medicine but the majority of the remainder went into other areas where they were also expected to work exceptionally hard up front and progression was essentially based on the choice to sacrifice a good chunk of your life. In my immediate friends I had two investment bankers and one corporate lawyer. I remember they spent several years in the same way we did except they literally slept under their desks as opposed to a doss room. They lived on take out, got clothes dry cleaned and literally never left the office except once every week or so to drop home or go out for a night (and get absolutely smashed). Life is now very sweet for every one of them. Great lives and only do consulting work as convenient as no need for $$ at this point. One of these was female and had one child at 40yo with assistance. That’s the sacrifice they chose to make in order to go down that path. The difference now is that there is a generation who leave uni and think rewarding jobs and progression are ‘owed’ to them without this hard graft, hard choices and sacrifice and cry hard done by when this is not the reality.

I’ve always thought this from afar.

I studied a science at a top 5 university and all of the Medics who graduated are probably still earning less than the average graduate who, as you say, had the opportunity to walk into a Big 4 or banking job at significantly higher salary.

Honestly, it looks miserable and poorly paid and I’m so grateful to those whose vocation it is to do it.

hoppingpavlova I think that is a little harsh, and also misses the point. Sure, many progressions require hard work in order to progress initially, but I doubt many others are as long as medicine (5-6 years medical school, 2 years Foundation, 3 further years for gp training, or speciality training up to 8 years, plus the often required MD, PhD, etc). It's a rediculously long path. The current generation has also been monumentally screwed over by the older generation, for example house prices, pensions, tuition fees retirement age etc, so it is rediculous to say we are entitled. Our parents had it all. (free university, cheap housing, early retirement)

Poowilly it sounds like you made the right choice. A lot of people seem sceptical here that non-medical graduates often earn very well, but you have clearly seen that. There is also a much better working environment and quality of life too it appears out of medicine.

Sure, many progressions require hard work in order to progress initially, but I doubt many others are as long as medicine

But how long do you think it takes to get to a directorship of a company or partner in a law firm for example?

10/15/20 years depending on the ability, the business, economic climate.

Prior to that UG, possibly masters/PhD, professional training.

Yes Laurie so not many careers, you are talking about exceptional paths there.

Directorship of company would cover all sorts, HR, Sales, Marketing, Communications, Finance roles, IT.

Not to mention all kinds of consultancies (management, advertising, research, IT, accountancy, advisory, I would go on and on).

I often think that medical types have no clue at all about other careers.

Laurie I could say that many people have no clue as to careers, other than theirs, as this thread has demonstrated.

What you have quoted are exceptional career paths, with far greater end reward.

Many here doubted that graduates from my university generally commanded a starting salary of over £40k. This is proven by the average salary for graduates from my university being £37k, an average which is pulled down significantly by all the lowly paid medical graduates.

Regardless, this isn't about the money foremost, though people seem to often comment on that.

Medicine is very family unfriendly not just because of the long hours, but also being constantly relocated, having to move house or travel great distances to work. Antisocial and inflexible hours, with no option to work from home. Being treated very poorly by the organisation, which includes difficulty accessing maternity leave (yes, I know this isn't legal, but it happens), or being completely prevented from accessing shared parental leave (due to rotating as a trainee). It's a travesty, and I think those that don't work for the NHS generally have no idea as to the reality of it.

Just caught up. Hadthesnip.. yes the truth hurts. The real truth not your truth. You have 20 clients in London and South East. Quite frankly that is not a usual or large population to base your sweeping opinions on. I know what I earn, what my husband earns and what many of my other GP friends earn. You don't. I can assure your veiws are skewed and wildly overestimate what many incomes are. I'm not saying you are wrong in your particular area but please don't assume everywhere is the same. It really isn't. I haven't needed a financial advisor for many years as I don't have any spare for them to advise on.

What you have quoted are exceptional career paths, with far greater end reward

Hardly. A directorship in a company might net you 60-90K (though it will go higher than that for senior directors). What does a consultant/GP get again?

Medicine is very family unfriendly not just because of the long hours, but also being constantly relocated, having to move house or travel great distances to work. Antisocial and inflexible hours, with no option to work from home.

Sure, but the jobs I’ve mentioned will also involve long hours, sometimes antisocial (my job for example involves at least 2 days per week where I work 8am to 10pm). No overtime payment or in lieu for this btw.

They can involve lots of travel, often at very short notice, often foreign. In my previous job, I’d be asked on a Wednesday to fly to Shanghai (or wherever) for a week on the Saturday. One of my good friends is a consultant for EY and spent 24 weeks last year working in another city hundreds of miles away.

All decently paid, professional jobs these days are tough and most aren’t family friendly at all. It’s just the way of it.

And in the meantime, endless threads criticising NHS staff.

This thread should make it clear why service is not always exactly as we would like it. Staff are overworked and underfunded, and often treated badly. That is why.

60-90k, where? For which company? Can you link to one of these jobs?

I know graduates in London who are earning that within 5 years of graduating. Not in directorship roles, merely senior.

Travel is one thing, but having to completely move your life every 12 months is another. Also being treated so appallingly (leave issues, not being ever able to be there for family due to inflexible rota, physically demanding work which is dangerous in pregnancy).

It isn't a race to the bottom either. If you have experienced all of this in your private sector job I would suggest moving company. Sadly I don't have that option.

did I plan this yes I agree, absolutely it is a subset. I have never had a financial advisor either!

60-90k, where? For which company? Can you link to one of these jobs?

In my own industry, consumer research, that would be standard. If I get a chance later I’ll send a link.

I’m not saying that medicine isn’t a tough career, but just agreeing with Hopping that being tough and not family friendly is in no way unique to medicine. All jobs have their challenges.

No it’s not a race to the bottom, but the question posed by the OP is around medicine not being a great career choice. The comparative context is obviously important.

For what it’s worth, research I’ve seen would suggest that some of the medical adjunct professions (optometry, pharmacy) come out best in terms of pay in relation to worklife balance. That sounds plausible to me.

Not a medic but another HCP joining the exodus from the NHS soon.

I’m so frustrated for the OP here - despite explicitly and repeatedly saying it’s not about the money, it’s about an uncaring, unsustainable and unsupportive environment - posters pile on with unusual examples of high salaried doctors.

I completely sympathise and agree the system is no longer compatible with being a working parent. Day to day, I’ve seen so many SHO’s nearly in tears as their bleep goes off and their list of patients to see increases far faster than they can review them. They’re so unsupported by the Reg’s - who are themselves taking on far too much work from Consultants, where there are huge rota gaps. I’ll often force them to sit down, make them a tea (their first in eg 10 hours) and tell them it’s not an emergency bleep - it can wait. 5 minutes later, they’ve seen our patient and left - tea untouched, back to making life and death decisions or assisting with complex surgery.

The lack of sympathy for NHS staff at present and worse the comparisons with office jobs is so frustrating. Do people really expect you to spend 13 hours resuscitating babies or interpreting complex fetal heart traces and deciding on which emergency caesarean needs doing first; without a drink, food, a wee?! It’s unsafe. Then for doctors who have been unthinkingly placed by their Deanery 2 hours from home (because NHS staff are just spaces in a spreadsheet to fill, not people), not arrive home till 11pm, then back up at 6am to do this again for 8/9/10 days in a row? Because even though it’s above their contracted hours and EU directives, there’s no-one else to cover and the NHS has become so dependant on this goodwill that it’s now expected as the norm.

OP, you could consider another speciality. Alternatively if you chose to take your skills and knowledge elsewhere, those who have any experience of working in the NHS would completely understand. At the end of the day, your well-being and your family are far more important.

Book marking

I went through the interview process to be a trainee financial advisor for the BMA or doctors generally when I left uni (can’t remember the name of the company) it was god awful, cheesy old fashioned sales type interview and the whole business model was to get junior doctors hooked in as clients so you were well in when the big money started arriving. Made me feel dirty