To think medicine isn't a great career choice

[Medicmog]

Growing up, I dreamed of being a doctor. I was bright and motivated, and worked hard at school, and did lots of volunteering, extra curricular activities, and work experience, to gain admission to medical school. It was encouraged by my school and parents, as something worthwhile to aspire to.

I worked hard to complete six years of medical school, while non-medical friends graduated after three or four years and walked into highly paid jobs (generally £40k+). Two or three extra years studying, and I started on little over half this (plus an antisocial hours allowance on some jobs). Fine, I never went into medicine for the money.

What I find difficult is that doctors (and moreover all public sector workers) are so vulnerable due to current politics, public confidence in the progression is at an all time low, bullying in the progression is rife, and it is such an absolutely thankless job, where your employer treats you appallingly.

I have been injured at work, due to my workplaces negligence, and they illegally docked my pay subsequently, despite my continued working. I have been sick, and had consultants say they don't care about occupational health recommendations.

I had a serious illness, and when I emailed work, together with a sick note, I was told that it would be a great inconvenience, and to get back as soon as possible.

I have felt unwell at work and told that I wasn't allowed to sit down.

I have been shouted at and bullied by colleagues.

I have been threatened by patients and relatives.

I have been pressured to do physical work while pregnant that endangered my health.

When I went on maternity leave I didn't get so much as an email wishing me well, let alone a card.

My children have suffered from the long antisocial hours, including the significant amount of unpaid overtime I have done.

I'm at breaking point, and genuinely dreading going back to work after maternity leave. Why would I want to leave my baby, in order to pay more for childcare than I earn, and be treated like shit?

I realise this is a self indulgent post, but in some ways it is cathartic to share. I wouldn't ever recommend someone to join this profession, and I think young people considering it should be given a balanced perspective.

I find it crazy that people talk about consultants salaries of (as much as!) £150k like it’s the holy grail. I don’t think that’s attractive at all considering their skill and would expect that to be at the lower end of what society should value consultants at. £150k is the sort of money a senior person reporting into an exec director in a medium company would earn. For example in my company the treasury director earns close to that. It is of course a skilled job but involves refinancing loans and making sure interest is paid. Structuring the loan portfolio. Appointing advisors. But exactly consultant stuff (that’s just one example)

It blows my mind that a junior doctor with so much skill and debt could earn less than £40k. A newly qualified accountant could expect £40k. Nothing like the same level of skill.

It also blows my mind that doctors earning so little decided to have 4 children mind

Sorry OP meant to say thanks to you an all the doctors on this thread for looking after us when we need it most

Oh and aside from the general points I was making about the difficulty of being a woman in medicine these working conditions sound appalling.

For all those saying grad jobs aren’t £40k-
www.legalcheek.com/2019/05/freshfields-raises-newly-qualified-solicitor-pay-to-100000/amp/
This is the firm I referred to in my earlier post - newly qualified solicitor will have a law degree then a one year professional qualification then 2 year training contract working whilst training and in big firms like this earning around £50:60k as trainees then £100k as NQ solicitor aged around 24/25.
Sure it’s hard graft and intellectually challenging but no where near so much as a jnr dr on around 1/3 of the salary .

But that only illustrates the point I made up thread. Freshfields is magic circle. Best of the best. There are only five firms in the bracket and to get one of those very competitive, limited jobs you’d be top of your class/first from oxbridge type.

It’s very far from typical.

What does a newly qualified solicitor in a regional family firm get? Probably around 30k.

I'm not a dr but can see that what you say is true for the majority.

I'm a nurse and would never ever encourage my dcs into it as a profession, or medicine either. Really sad state of affairs. The pressures these days are unmanageable with the prospect of very little support if things do go wrong. You absolutely have my sympathy.

Oh and my accountant example- a newly qualified accountant is likely to be minimum 2-3 years post graduation earning £40k. So it’s not typical in that area either

£40k is standard for graduates working for Shell, and banking, and commercial law. I'm not saying it's the norm in the UK, but it certainly isn't unusual for those working in London, with a STEM degree from a well regarded university. Regardless, this is a bit of a detail from the point of this thread.

It also blows my mind that anyone would pay so much for a graduate who can offer your company so little. But not as mind blowing as removing bursaries for nursing degrees so nurses can spend £9k on a degree in order to earn £30k a year for the rest of their career

I'm a nurse too and I'd say to my kids "Do neither, but of the two, be a nurse"

This year I've had 3 (THREE) medical staff crying in the Nurses Station on my shoulder. Literally crying.

Their life is horrendous, every day. They get blamed for everything and bullied a lot. A culture of "Don't go to HR or your career is ruined"

And it seems just as shit at Consultant level. They never seem to go home. They have kids they never seem to see. 2 Consultants I know sent their kids to boarding school, the ones that didn't have wives that are SAHMs but they get home so late they do precious little childrearing.

The female consultants seem to have only one child and have to have a Nanny.

It's absurdly incompatible with family life.

And you make this decision at 17!!

Oh and it blows my mind that some dilbert in HR could have such power over front line medical staff. What an absolute scandal

It also blows my mind that anyone would pay so much for a graduate who can offer your company so little.

You can rest assured that theyre doing it because they have substantial faith that person will make many, many multiples of that for the company in the longer term.

These firms are extremely commercially focused and very far from stupid.

£40k is standard for graduates working for Shell
I’ve just had a look, apparently they get about 100,000 applicants a year for their grad scheme I can’t see how many get accepted but I’m guessing a lot of applicants don’t make it. 😱😱

That’s true to some extent but it’s a triangle- lota of grads with the expectation you’ll shed a fair number on their way to senior management.

But the question is really whether you need to pay them that much to attract them. I used to hire Grads for an audit firm and never needed to.

Non clinical NHS staff. Completely agree with OP. I think I'm reasonably good at my job but I absolutely hate and dread going to work. Abuse from patients, bullying by managers is absolutely rife. Unreasonable expectations about the amount of work you are expected to do, and if you complain, you get told it's you who is not good enough. Staff are terrified to complain because those that do are always put in the wrong. I would absolutely hate to be clinical, and yes consultants are treated like shit in my trust too. I dont know anyone at the hospital I work at who is actually happy at work. Trying to get out myself at present, but unfortunately doesnt look likely. Many, many people are broken and already it is difficult to get enough staff but I wonder how the NHS will be staffed in the future. People are not going to keep signing up for this shit

of grads with the expectation you’ll shed a fair number on their way to senior management

Yes but s small percentage of 100,000.

My industry’s very different, but big global company, best known in the field, probably hires 50-100 grads a year.

Shell? I’d love to know but my best guess would be 300-500. 3-5% of applicants. Global competition.

Not really comparable to medicine then. But not really relevant either tbf

Whoops, percentages off 0.3-0.5%

Agreed. It’s not useful to directly compare them.

I was earning 40k as a PA in the City working from home one day a week. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I'm ex magic circle - there were probably 7 with that salary level, plus the American firms. I always assumed it was to compete with the bank grad schemes.

Now married to a vet - relevant in that it is an example of a private medical system without any state involvement...

Salaries are worse than Drs and there's no prospect of making lots unless you are Noel Fitzpatrick or a couple of racehorse equivalents - so 4 or 5 in the UK. Used to be decent prospects but the corporates are taking over effectively capping salaries at 55 - 75k, forever where you used to be able to buy in and at least share in the profits.

Hours and public perception suck too - competition between employers is more of a race to the bottom. Sick pay - 2 weeks on some of the better contracts, SSP only on many. Including for injuries at work - saw a survey that suggested 65% of vets had been injured at work in the last year. Admittedly some of these will be bruising and minor cuts which tend to get ignored but I'm aware of some career ending injuries as well.

It’s very strange how medical staff are treated when they are sick. But patients are told to take time off work etc. I know of a doctor who was basically told to work through her miscarriage. She was then admitted to the hospital where she worked in. They tried to discipline her for being admitted with a pregnancy related illness in her next pregnancy despite knowing that pregnancy illness is discounted.

Do a diploma in pharmaceutical medicine. Get job in pharmacy company. Make much better money than working in NHS. Family friendly hours and lots of time for post work cocktails. Pretty much a 9-5 jobs. I know lots of medics who’ve barely stepped inside a hospital apart from the minimum to get registration.