To think medicine isn't a great career choice

[Medicmog]

Growing up, I dreamed of being a doctor. I was bright and motivated, and worked hard at school, and did lots of volunteering, extra curricular activities, and work experience, to gain admission to medical school. It was encouraged by my school and parents, as something worthwhile to aspire to.

I worked hard to complete six years of medical school, while non-medical friends graduated after three or four years and walked into highly paid jobs (generally £40k+). Two or three extra years studying, and I started on little over half this (plus an antisocial hours allowance on some jobs). Fine, I never went into medicine for the money.

What I find difficult is that doctors (and moreover all public sector workers) are so vulnerable due to current politics, public confidence in the progression is at an all time low, bullying in the progression is rife, and it is such an absolutely thankless job, where your employer treats you appallingly.

I have been injured at work, due to my workplaces negligence, and they illegally docked my pay subsequently, despite my continued working. I have been sick, and had consultants say they don't care about occupational health recommendations.

I had a serious illness, and when I emailed work, together with a sick note, I was told that it would be a great inconvenience, and to get back as soon as possible.

I have felt unwell at work and told that I wasn't allowed to sit down.

I have been shouted at and bullied by colleagues.

I have been threatened by patients and relatives.

I have been pressured to do physical work while pregnant that endangered my health.

When I went on maternity leave I didn't get so much as an email wishing me well, let alone a card.

My children have suffered from the long antisocial hours, including the significant amount of unpaid overtime I have done.

I'm at breaking point, and genuinely dreading going back to work after maternity leave. Why would I want to leave my baby, in order to pay more for childcare than I earn, and be treated like shit?

I realise this is a self indulgent post, but in some ways it is cathartic to share. I wouldn't ever recommend someone to join this profession, and I think young people considering it should be given a balanced perspective.

sunk costs!

Haven’t RTFT but wanted to sending solidarity to the other struggling medics. I quit my job as a consultant psychiatrist 1 month ago, heartbroken to have left a job I loved but so happy to be out of a toxic environment that was destroying me.
Big hats off to anyone who manages to stick it.

I've not read the full thread. Many of those things have happened in my working life. I do hear doctor friends talk about £1m pensions / not cost effective to have more
money in pension this year/ I need an extension, I'll do a few months of Saturday mornings. I think maybe in medicine , like any business it depends where you work? E.g some consultants can do pretty much 9-5 ish? Maybe find the best area or change speciality? It's such a worthwhile respected job. You've trained a long time. For that level of salary work life balance is affected in any industry.

I'm a pharmacist and I definitely feel that I would rather be a pharmacist than a doctor. The training is shorter, we do walk straight into roles paying 40k+ and the hours are generally family friendly. Career progression isn't fantastic and the wages don't really go up very much after qualification but I get a lot less abuse from my customers...

Oh OP, I’ve totally been where you are and it’s really shit. I think in particular, female doctors coming back after maternity leave have a really tough time. It’s so hard to get back into the job after a 2 week holiday, never mind the best part of a full year off. And I think the snuggliness of being home with a baby emphasises the nastiness of (some parts of) the NHS. There’s no recognition or support for trainees returning after mat leave, as the recent high profile case has emphasised, and that’s a real failure on the part of deaneries.

After one of my mat leaves I went to speak to the LTFT person in my deanery and asked for a career break. She didn’t think I would return (she was probably right) and instead negotiated that I could work at 20% for 6 months. This was a real life saver for me, and I wonder if there’s any scope for this for you?

I also lost money by going to work, due to employing an amazing nanny, I couldn’t have left the house without her (4 kids, all home educated). I rationalised this by remembering that I was still building up my pension, and moving on in my career. Plus dh was also earning so that helped.

The only thing that kept me going for many years was local family support (my mum especially was amazing, she went above and beyond as she didn’t want me to quit), and also the wonderful LTFT lady at the deanery, who happened to be a consultant in my field and was easily the most important mentor I have had in my life. That’s why I don’t think you should necessarily dismiss the idea of moving deaneries, there must be some, other than Yorkshire, who have a similarly nurturing reputation??

Anyway, eventually I finished training and now work part time in a job that I (mostly) love, in a good trust as part of a wonderful team. I feel privileged to be paid well for the hours that I do, which enables me to continue home educating my kids and have a good work-life balance. For me it was worth persevering, but it was only possible with massive family support and the amazing LTFT deanery person.

In short, I think you should think carefully what you like about the job, and if you were a consultant tomorrow, do you think things would be better? If the answer is yes, it’s probably worth persevering, perhaps in a different region. If not, it’s totally not worth the pain and you should cut your losses, take some time to think and consider retraining in a non-medical profession.

Good luck . Happy to chat further on pm if you think it would help

(I’ve namechanged for this post as it’s totally outing to anyone who knows me)

In the quest for greater and greater academic achievement to get into med school we are selecting a group of kids who arent terribly resilient and are soooo successful they collapse if they have to meet failure

That's right @MoseShrute, blame the modern youngsters and whine about how resilient they're not nowadays. Do you think they enjoy having to be Miss Perfect-And-High-Achievers all the time? Do you think they enjoy having to live under so much pressure (clue: that's where all the mental health issues come from)? Do you think they'd get anywhere in modern life if they didn't play that game? Do you think they enjoy looking at the few opportunities available with low wages and the tuition fees and rising cost of living? Can you not see that this is the natural consequent result of the academic arms race we've been running, the steady erosion of opportunities and work that pays? Can you not see how the UK's economy is broken, and these poor kids are the victims?

Would you prefer it if they checked out and lived on benefits? Or would you find some other names and insults to call them then?

DarkAtTheEnd - you make some great points but could’ve been kinder. 💐

I don’t know anyone who went into jobs that paid 40k after university. I don’t even earn that now in London, and I went to the top university in the country for my subject, and I’m in my 50s. The GP pension should not be underestimated. I’m in the private sector where employers only have provided a basic pension when the government forced them to and none of it is guaranteed.

Australia.

I believe that everywhere except the USA will accept you based on your British qualifications. I think even then they don't make you resit exams, they just make you do a year as an intern and then you get to go back to whatever level you were at in Britain. (Do check on the USA stuff because we didn't look into it ourselves, I'm just going off what friends have said.)

Being a doctor in Australia is bloody brilliant. So far removed from that shit that you have to put up with in the NHS.

I don’t know anyone who went into jobs that paid 40k after university

Ditto. Not one single friend, out of, what- 60 kids? We all, in a wide variety of different subjects, with open eyes knew we wouldn't just walk into a high paid job. We all start off at the bottom. Who on earth thinks otherwise??

DarkAtTheEnd - you make some great points but could’ve been kinder. 💐

I was just coming back to apologise for ranting on a Sunday morning, but ye gods, I am so very sick of the wilful ignorance and blindness in this country, particularly from the over-privileged, and previous generations, both of which groups have had life far too easy. This country is fucked.

Your situation sounds really hard. Medics often have a thankless task on the NHS.

Have you thought about going into industry? Drug/clinical development or medical affairs could be interesting and there is always a shortage of clinicians for these roles. There are several pharma companies in/just outside London with R&D and medical depts in those locations, plus a range of smaller biotech types.

You're allowed to leave your job if you don't like it, OP. You don't have to justify your decision to MNers.

It's very sad to hear of bright dedicated people ... realising that they could earn more elsewhere.

I disgree this is the case for the majority.

I always find drs are comparing themselves with the top echelons of other other professions. So magic circle law firms, highly successful investment bankers.

The truth is
There aren’t many of these jobs
The competitions is cut throat
To justify the huge salaries, these people will be personally generating many multiples of that figure for the company. This level of commercial application is rare.

So while a small percentage of doctors could be earning the mega bucks, the vast majority are probably better off where they are money wise.

That’s not to say it’s not a tough job, it is. But I don’t see that the grass is greener.

Why can't people just be civil to one another? Hearing that Doctors are being bullied or getting abuse from patients is really terrible and I do cannot imagine never being polite to anyone or not saying please and thank you.
I know other professions are the same too and it makes me sad.
I can't advice the op , but I hope you find a solution to your work problems.

There are lots of good things about medicine, but there are also so many damaging and demotivating things too. This thread is doing a great job of illustrating that the general public has no clue what it’s like.

there's never anywhere to leave your belongings so bags/coats usually go on the floor

This resonated with me. In my last job one of the maintenance men came into our mess to check something, and noticed all of our coats and bags piled on the floor. He came back later that day and put up a couple of racks of coat hooks. We were all genuinely so grateful, it was such a nice gesture and it made a huge difference just having somewhere to hang your coat.

The general public are mostly ignorant because they don't see it for themselves on a day to day basis and it's threads like these that give me an insight into how bad it is.
I had no idea.

You are right OP and honestly it doesn't get any better as a Consultant. My dh enjoyed his junior years but it was different back then he was part of a "firm", there was solidarity and he felt looked after. He also felt a lot more respected by the public in those days. He genuinely feels sorry for junior doctors now.
He's been a Consultant for 11 years now and has hated it for about the last 8 years. He's utterly miserable. Unfortunately he has a serious health diagnosis that is potentially career ending or even life ending at some point, so it's unlikely that any other employer would give him a job now. His career wasn't supposed to be like this, he truly believed he would enjoy it. He a bloody hard worker and it's not about the hours or the money. It's about the culture which comes from the top - the Government! They despise NHS workers, at times DH says it feels like a hate campaign.
Look for ways to get out, you are still young enough to do it.

Well yes and no. Sounds bad in the UK. I know some of the salaries of Drs in NZ and they’re not bad. Eg. senior registrars $100k plus. Consultants anywhere from $250k - $600k

Some of this is the NHS being in a dreadful state but some of this is also a feminist issue in my opinion.

One reason a lot of doctors coped better in the past is because they were men and their wives supported their careers and the family while they went to work.

Now we have a profession which is being done by many women but which hasn't changed to accommodate this, if anything it has got worse.

Anyone doing this type of work needs a spouse working shortish office hours and prepared to pick up the rest of family life (I expect there are more wives than husbands in this category) or they need a full time nanny.

We tax nannies as if they were some type of wild luxury for oligarchs not a necessity for highly trained and skilled women to continue to contribute to our health service.

For older children an au pair might work. Again treated by many as a frivolous luxury rather than often the only way midwives, nurses and police officers have to go to work.

I feel like we are encouraging young women to aim for these careers then setting them up to fail.

halfapoundoftupennyrice think I do know youa!

Please ignore the unhelpful messages. You are working insanely hard and your wellbeing and family life is really suffering. It doesn’t really matter how much you earn, if it’s less than you need and it’s making you ill then it’s understandable you might look at other options.

Have you thought of working for a pharmaceutical company or emigrating (probably not practical). Most of my medic friends now work in NZ.

Thank you for all you have done for the NHS. Your employer may never thank you but trust me when I say you will have made a difference and have been appreciated. You probably just don’t hear that feedback as it’s to friends and family once the person is home.

SUzieQQQ yes Doctors are generally much happier in NZ (dh did a locum there a few years ago). They are better paid and the tax rate is lower - but it's not just that! they are more respected and feel more valued. Unfortunately we couldn't stay as my mum was very ill and we came back to the UK.

Grapefruit, you have written something I wanted to say myself , but so much more eloquently!
I know it's not a mumsnet thing to do but I did support my husband in his job ( engineer and he travelled a lot and we moved around a lot too) he couldn't have done it without me, we had to pull together. It's not very modern and I had to make sacrifices but it worked for me and others too.
If your a woman doctor then all of this is going to be soo hard to do if you have children or even worse married to someone in the profession as well!
How they do it I don't know not without a lot of help!