To think medicine isn't a great career choice

[Medicmog]

Growing up, I dreamed of being a doctor. I was bright and motivated, and worked hard at school, and did lots of volunteering, extra curricular activities, and work experience, to gain admission to medical school. It was encouraged by my school and parents, as something worthwhile to aspire to.

I worked hard to complete six years of medical school, while non-medical friends graduated after three or four years and walked into highly paid jobs (generally £40k+). Two or three extra years studying, and I started on little over half this (plus an antisocial hours allowance on some jobs). Fine, I never went into medicine for the money.

What I find difficult is that doctors (and moreover all public sector workers) are so vulnerable due to current politics, public confidence in the progression is at an all time low, bullying in the progression is rife, and it is such an absolutely thankless job, where your employer treats you appallingly.

I have been injured at work, due to my workplaces negligence, and they illegally docked my pay subsequently, despite my continued working. I have been sick, and had consultants say they don't care about occupational health recommendations.

I had a serious illness, and when I emailed work, together with a sick note, I was told that it would be a great inconvenience, and to get back as soon as possible.

I have felt unwell at work and told that I wasn't allowed to sit down.

I have been shouted at and bullied by colleagues.

I have been threatened by patients and relatives.

I have been pressured to do physical work while pregnant that endangered my health.

When I went on maternity leave I didn't get so much as an email wishing me well, let alone a card.

My children have suffered from the long antisocial hours, including the significant amount of unpaid overtime I have done.

I'm at breaking point, and genuinely dreading going back to work after maternity leave. Why would I want to leave my baby, in order to pay more for childcare than I earn, and be treated like shit?

I realise this is a self indulgent post, but in some ways it is cathartic to share. I wouldn't ever recommend someone to join this profession, and I think young people considering it should be given a balanced perspective.

@Medicmog Hi just wanted to say you sound like a really lovely doctor, I think it is unkind of your manager or colleagues not to send you anything for yourself or your new baby , I am also a healthcare professional but nursing ( advisor role for private company so office based but it's still rubbish ) I haven't received anything either whilst on mat leave .. I also am dreading going back as it's a huge blame culture and sometimes I don't feel like revalidating ... I do think it's worth seeing what other careers are out there there have you considered something like 111 where you would be telephone based Doctor xxx good luck with everything xxx

What’s happened with working in the UK? There are so many posts on here about work stress, unreasonable demands and managers, poor recruitment practices, bullying, abusive customers/patients.

You would think that with employment laws, health and safety regulations, fewer dangerous jobs that working lives would be positive?

But no. Many people are expected to be on call 24/7 via mobile phones, salaries have stagnated, bullying is rife and many customers/patients are entitled, rude and physically abusive.

My relatives recall walking out of one job on a Friday and starting another on a Monday. A sense of camaraderie and lunchtimes at the pub. You left your office job at 5pm and that was that. No emails to check in the evenings and weekends.

My grandmother was an NHS nurse in the 1950s. She recalls doctors and nurses being respected. She cannot recall being hit or sworn at like NHS staff do every day. She worked a 48 hour week but lived in the nurses home and was well looked after. She worked hard but again, there was a sense of camaraderie. To be a doctor was a excellent career.

My friend was a gp for many years and has recently left the profession. She says she only knows one doctor who is happy in their jobs. She would not recommend it as a career.

Thank you for to everyone who has replied supportively, and sorry to hear others have had bad experiences too.

I see a lot are predictively latching onto the money, when I said it's not about that. It's about being treated badly. I would like to earn enough to afford decent, reliable childcare, in order to facilitate me to be able to do my job though.

Neither is it a race to the bottom: saying there are others with difficult jobs makes ours no better.

I have many friends and relatives in the private sector and I see that they have it so much better on the whole: better hours, better treatment, flexible working, options to work from home, perks (I can't even say better perks, there are no perks to being a doctor), and yes, better money.

@didiplanthis. Sorry if the truth hurts. I do work in London & the south east in case this makes a difference. I have around 20 GP's as clients & none earn under £100k pa......apart from maybe 2 or 3 who have very young children (under 5) and are working just 4 or 5 sessions a week. I have at least half a dozen paying 45% tax.

Also, the very top earners that the press picked up on a few years ago we earning £300k plus - but at that time was very unusual.

Also to be clear, I worked as an IFA for the BMA & had nothing to do with their general running of things, although I did get involved a couple of times with issues over working hours & sick pay.

Have you considered histo, micro, radiology or derm?
Am a histopathologist. Have always hated medicine but am very happy with this. It's like a major career change!

@Medicmog yes it is frustrating to hear of others who have dress down Fridays , gyms on site at their work place , on site massage therapist ( for free ), buffet lunches , working from
Home but then just go for afternoon tea instead ( I know someone who does this ). It is frustrating when you went into this to help others as an intelligent individual who is dedicated to others you should get rewarded with respect and to be able to do basic things like pay for childcare the whole system is wrong .

sunshine no I haven't, thank you for the suggestions. Honestly, I know little about histopathology as a speciality.

Worried meant to be worked!!

had the snip your experience of GP salaries is totally irrelevant here, as I have made it clear that I am not a GP. I would also say that GPs who who a financial advisor are a select subset of GPs, and therefore not representative of the whole.

I earn a lot less than £100k. I'm fact, I have not paid the full GMC fee in four years, as my salary had been under 30k. Yes, I do not work full time, but with unpaid overtime, my hours as comparable to a person who works a regular full time job.

Murphs thank you. I have little faith in Boris caring about 'ordinary' people like me, but I really appreciate the sentiment.

Sorry to hear things have been so tough. I would recommend that you need to bottom out how you want your career to go, it probably feels like an insurmountable obstacle at the minute.
Firstly you says you are an SpR. Is your specialty the right one? Can you see consultants in it who have a job you'd like? Are there any who have managed to use that training to go into a niche that might be nicer(how did they manage it?)? Do you like your work setting?(hospital Vs community)
If the answers to these questions are no, you might be in the wrong specialty.
You need to do more career exploration and it might be worth consulting with an occupational psychologist to tease this out.
I did this to choose my specialty and it was really helpful.
And don't get too overwhelmed by the negativity currently. It is bloody hard practicing at the moment but you should try and find a way to make it work, before you pack it in completely. Trying to return after a few years out can be really hard.

The NHS treat its employees so badly. One friend was bullied at the hospital by her manager, went to GP who put her on diazapam and sick leave for three weeks, she still went back to the same awful manager.

My friend has two sons training in medicine, they intend to go abroad asap after they qualify. They have seen as students how awful it is.

I had the option to be a doctor but decided not to. It seems that no medics really understand this decision - why on earth would anyone turn that down. I'm still slightly looked down on occasionally.
But I'm glad I did. I'm glad I worked out at 18/19 that the hours, the pressure, and the style of learning (facts facts and more facts) weren't for me.

I do think you have rather rose tinted spectacles about other careers, especially as you must work very part time if your income is under £30K.
I worked for the NHS for more than 15 years, I now teach, my DH is a senior consultant and his favourite way of winding me up is to suggest I worked harder at school and became a medic as he has speciality doctors on twice my salary working only 4 days a week. It is nothing about a race to the bottom but medics remain very well paid compared to other graduate jobs.
All parents worry about the work/ attention balance for their kids, I find it very hard to believe as a medic that nursery is costing you more than you are earning, and yes I was in that position when i worked for the NHS many years ago and had 3 under 5s, but I wasn’t on a medics salary.

This is awful. And I have seen it so many times. A good friend of mine (super smart, very hard working) has just retrained as a management consultant from a consultant gynae and is paid almost twice what she was plus has sociable office hours. She is a lot happier for it. I'm sure there are options for you if you want to leave medicine.

Rosie I think you are misinformed as to how much junior doctors earn. There isn't an option to be 'very part time' either as a speciality trainee: the minimum is 50%, but in reality a minimum of 60% is usually insisted on. Add to this on calls and unpaid overtime and the hours can be comparable to a regular full time job of 35-40 hours a week.

Since you can't understand how a medic cannot earn enough to pay for childcare, let me spell it out for you. I am an ST1 trainee (run through training).

ST1 salary is 36k, add extra for on calls on new contract and this may be 50k (depends on speciality and working pattern).

Gross to net calculator gives a take home of £144 a day, and this does not include pension (which is at least 9.3%), or student loan deductions. So at best £120 a day.

Nursery in London is expensive. My nearest is £70 a day, others charge far, far more. I live in a relatively cheap area.

I have two nursery aged children, and school aged children. Wrap around care in approx £15 per day, per child.

Add to this, I need to pay extra for childcare to wrap around nursery and school wrap around (due to early starts and working antisocial hours). This is at least an extra £100 a week.

I have no advice but empathy for you...i work in a ward setting not a doctor but hcp...these six weeks holidays feels like you are just steadying the boat...I have been off for a week, off again next week and absolutely dreading walking back on the ward when am back. Depending on the age of the children, holiday clubs might work better..🌺💐

I had a good friend doing med in the 80s until he dropped out half way through and went down another medical route. At the time I thought was an idiot, now I can see it was an extremely smart move. He has a nice 9am-5pm job still working in the medical profession but not as a doctor.

I have my utmost respect for doctors (and nurses) and you guys do deserve so much better, my DD has been in and out of hospitals / healthcare clinics for years and if it wasn't for you guys she wouldnt be living an ordinary healthy life.

Yes many people don't like their job, but there is a big difference between working 60hrs a week on shift than office hours. I am not particularly keen on my industry either (accounting). But at least I can do my job go home at 5pm 75% of the time and don't feel any guilt (unless I do a major fuck up) and I don't receive any abuse from the public, work stupid hours.

@Stopyourhavering64

How is being a Barrister less stressful????

@Medicmog

Thank you for what you do and I'm sorry you aren't rewarded accordingly.

crunchymum he's now 17 yrs call so has a lot of autonomy and works from home majority of the time ( he has a very niche area of expertise)
Only needs to go to chambers maybe once a month and sees clients in solicitors offices maybe 5-6 times month
He does work hard at home .... but it's nowhere near the same level of stress as when he was consultant!

About the pay - I’m leaving medicine to work in a completely new sector where they will give full training. Pay similar to low SHO pay but fewer hours, no weekends. I am lucky to find this job but I am not in London or finance. Junior doctors do not start on 40k (maybe you can get that 3 year post graduation?).

For me the pay was not the main issue. The stress was.

Medicmog £37 k not 36 k
If you have that many children then you need to have a nanny - average london salary 400-500 per week, so still leaving you in a positive financial situation, plus as soon as you move to ST3 you will be on £47k plus on call so very short term pain for massive long term gain.

I don't think there's any good career choices left in the UK, are there? There seem to be a few people with a lot of money around, but I don't know where they've made it. It's certainly not in the public sector. The only jobs that do seem to pay are the anti-social type, social media propaganda posts or accountants who help private companies avoid taxes legitimately. The only other people I know who've made money are landlords, or those who've been in the right place at the right time (i.e. years ago) on the property markets.
Working for an honest living in a socially useful job is an absolute mug's game nowadays.