To think medicine isn't a great career choice

[Medicmog]

Growing up, I dreamed of being a doctor. I was bright and motivated, and worked hard at school, and did lots of volunteering, extra curricular activities, and work experience, to gain admission to medical school. It was encouraged by my school and parents, as something worthwhile to aspire to.

I worked hard to complete six years of medical school, while non-medical friends graduated after three or four years and walked into highly paid jobs (generally £40k+). Two or three extra years studying, and I started on little over half this (plus an antisocial hours allowance on some jobs). Fine, I never went into medicine for the money.

What I find difficult is that doctors (and moreover all public sector workers) are so vulnerable due to current politics, public confidence in the progression is at an all time low, bullying in the progression is rife, and it is such an absolutely thankless job, where your employer treats you appallingly.

I have been injured at work, due to my workplaces negligence, and they illegally docked my pay subsequently, despite my continued working. I have been sick, and had consultants say they don't care about occupational health recommendations.

I had a serious illness, and when I emailed work, together with a sick note, I was told that it would be a great inconvenience, and to get back as soon as possible.

I have felt unwell at work and told that I wasn't allowed to sit down.

I have been shouted at and bullied by colleagues.

I have been threatened by patients and relatives.

I have been pressured to do physical work while pregnant that endangered my health.

When I went on maternity leave I didn't get so much as an email wishing me well, let alone a card.

My children have suffered from the long antisocial hours, including the significant amount of unpaid overtime I have done.

I'm at breaking point, and genuinely dreading going back to work after maternity leave. Why would I want to leave my baby, in order to pay more for childcare than I earn, and be treated like shit?

I realise this is a self indulgent post, but in some ways it is cathartic to share. I wouldn't ever recommend someone to join this profession, and I think young people considering it should be given a balanced perspective.

You're right it's not about the money.
Because it's public sector you have to accept being treated like crap. Nowhere to park, if you're lucky enough to have a dr's mess it's normally the size of a cupboard with no cutlery and stinks of feet, there's never anywhere to leave your belongings so bags/coats usually go on the floor, hot food out of hours? dream on.
It's very frustrating especially at 10pm of your 12th day on call, when your friend who works in the city has a on site gym and sushi chef.

Nannies charge far in excess of 400-500 a week in London! That is under £10 an hour, when the London living wage is more than £10 an hour.

I have looked at the nanny route: nannies expect a minimum of £13 an hour, far more for an experienced nanny. Plus there is employers ni and pension contributions, payment to a payroll company, and employer's liability insurance. Extra costs of food as nannies have food provided to them while working.

If I had a nanny, I would need 11-12 hour days. Not only is that not an attractive job, it's also extremely expensive, and would cost far more than my take-home.

Aesthetics? Or is that too far away from what you went into medicine for?

I’ve no doubt it’s tough. But I agree with a PP that there are virtually no good careers now.

Almost no one walks into a 40k job straight from their degree. That is vanishingly rare.

While I think the conditions for medicine difficult, the long term pay prospects are quite decent when compared elsewhere.

To earn 6 figures in the private sector, you’ll generally be generating many multiples of that for the business yourself. That requires very specific skill sets and brings its own pressures.

The cost of living is very high compared to salaries, that’s the bottom line.

It's hard work and the conditions and pay could be better but it's still an amazing job for some people.
There is a lot of flexibility and choice as to what area you work in. I think the secret is finding the right specialty and place of work.

moneyweek.com/32293/the-true-cost-of-a-nanny-58300/

Old article, so doesn't include pension contributions, but this shows that even if I could find a nanny willing to work for £500 a week (which isn't possible), then it would be more than my take home.

But yet again, this isn't about money, it's about working conditions foremost.

Hey, medicine is really tough. You are probably at the hardest bit though, because you have very young children and you are trying to build up your career. However, I do think this is really hard for women in most careers not just medicine.

Most people at that stage really struggle! To an extent it is a matter of head down and try your best. If you are like most doctors (and certainly like me) you will be a bit of a perfectionist. This is hard because there isn't space in the day to get everything perfect.

I am a paeds reg (ST5), and I have four children. I work LTFT at 60%. Whilst I recognise much of what you are saying, I am mostly very happy in my job. I love making a sick child better or blowing bubbles in A and E at 3am! Also I am good at my job and that is a really nice feeling.

However, I do minimal eportfolio stuff so I can get through ARCP. I have half finished projects so over the shop!

You say you are in London? Have you considered a deanery transfer. My deanery is a bit crap 😁 but it is a bit more low key.... We don't do as much extra stuff as London trainees. Also I've never had any comments about being part time etc. Obviously you rotate alot but I've managed to rotate mostly around 2-3 local hospitals. In this way I know the nurses, consultants etc in these hospitals very well. They know I don't call in sick unless I'm really ill, so if I say I need to go home, there isn't any judgement. Also I have my beady eyes on a consultant job, because I know when one of the locals is retiring and is about the time I finish. Having a proper trajectory is really helpful.

You are ST1 in a seven or eight year programme and really struggling. I know it seems a bit hopeless at the moment....... But try and remember the great bits!

Mixed feelings about this. My DD starts out as an F1 next week and I am so proud of herand she is really excited to get started with her career . I am so sad to read about the low morale in the nhs. Her starting salary is I think around£27k so not that great considering the responsibilities and the slog she's put in to get there. Her best mate from school is a trainee solicitor in a big London firm on £60k and will start on £100k approx as a newly qualified solicitor. Same length of training pretty much and She works her nuts off - really long hours / stress and pressure but the rewards are such that she can step down after a year or so to a less pressured role with a good financial cushion.
I wonder if part of the problem is that med school is so oversubscribed and so there's a ready supply of bright motivated youngsters eager to train and no need at all for the trusts to go anything +ve to attract and retain them. It's a depressing situation all round . Good luck OP resolving your situation - we need you!

Thank you for the kind words Nemo

I guess the big part is that I don't enjoy the work most of the time. I find it too stressful, I'm worried about making mistakes. I find the organisation too difficult to work for, and feel like I don't get anything back from the hard work I put in.

Children are settled in London, after a tough time recently, so I don't want to move them anytime soon. I'm not really sure of the solution. It may be changing speciality, or it may be leaving medicine. Maybe it will be better when I return post maternity leave in a new trust. I can only hope.

The great thing about being a doctor is that in most other parts of the world you are actually valued and treated fairly. That's why so many emigrate to other countries. My DH and I did and we'd never look back. I know it's sad that the NHS is in a mess, but it isn't your responsibility to allow yourself to be abused and mistreated, underpaid, make yourself physically ill, and risk falling asleep on the motorway whilst driving home from an illegal night shift that's run straight on from the day shift that you were forced to do because "everyone has to do their bit". You can't save the NHS. Especially not whilst it's kicking you in the process. It's a horrible place to be a doctor. Go anywhere else and things will be better.

Twisty do you mind me asking where you work now? And which countries the uk qualification is recognised?

I think the main thing is OP if it doesn’t make you happy anymore then look into something else. Maybe something that you can do with the experience you already have or something totally new.

No point trying to force it anymore if you feel that way. Maybe look for something that is a little more family friendly also x

Life's too short. Do something else using your medical experience. I have friends that earn top money selling specialised medical equipment etc.

I agree - have had this discussion with my mum who was all impressed by one of their friends kids going to Cambridge to study medicine - sure, they must be v clever, but it's very hard work and not much money...status doesn't give you a good work life balance does it? I'd rather my kids became an electrician or hairdresser - much more opportunity to be flexible/ be your own boss/ work in a variety of industries etc!

I've just finished this book, i kind of knew it was bad in the NHS but didn't realise it has been going on for so long.

www.amazon.co.uk/This-Going-Hurt-Secret-Diaries/dp/150985861X?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

My brother is about to finish his surgical training and become a consultant. He's completely, totally and utterly fed up at the way the NHS treats its staff and is probably going to quit and do something else before he becomes a consultant. This is in no small part because he said he doesn't want to become responsible for a department because things are so bad - the understaffing, the lack of investment, the waiting lists etc and despite the Herculean efforts of the staff that are working over and above their contracts every single day, the mortality rates are rising because they cannot continue to do more with less.....

I'm heartbroken that he feels this way after SO much hard work to get to this point, as I think he is actually a very compassionate surgeon (rare I believe!) and he has had amazing testimonials from patients, but he really doesn't enjoy his work any more and is young enough to change tack (probably).

I hope you can find a solution or a way through it all to a better job, or work /life balance outside of hospital medicine - I can't think that a no deal Brexit is going to help things much either

Where did you go, twisty?

My DH retrained as a doctor after working in the city as an investment banker. I think it was about 8 years before he made it back up to his initial starting salary on the city graduate scheme. He has found it a very tough job but now works three days a week in GP. We will never have flash cars or big holidays or kids in private school but I don’t think any more would be sustainable for him. Big slog to get here though.

Oh OP I totally understand this.
DH is a surgeon and it’s a nightmare. He earns ok, but much less than his academic peers from his (also very well regarded university) who went into finance or IT and earn 2-4 times as much!

Yet somehow small minded idiots (daily mail readers) complain he’s ‘earning too much’ and should do his incredibly difficult and demanding/draining job for a packet of crisps and the joy of helping people 🙄

Despite 10 months notice and repeated reminders they scheduled him to work a long day on our wedding day. When he turned 30 we bought a house in our home town near family (just over the road from the hospital he was working at) we were fed up of bouncing around and I had a job/career to push forward with (they don’t give a shit about that) they almost immediately put him at another hospital 2 hours drive away!

He had 2 bad car accidents in that time because of the RIDICULOUS hours (overtime with no notice because they just stick extra people on his list) they don’t care. They don’t care that they force him to commute hours after an already 13-14 hour day and quite often no/very few breaks! On that 37 degree day we just had he got ONE drink break ALL DAY! And isn’t allowed to take a drink into theatre with him. He was very unwell that night!

(He’s still training so not super junior but not a consultant either!)

Now they’re moving him back to the hospital opposite our house ... but only for six months. Despite the fact that I’ll be 7.5 months into an (already difficult) first pregnancy by then they won’t confirm where he’ll be for the that last 1.5 months they may well put him EVEN further away! 2-3 hours commute.

I’m already anxious that I’ll have no safety/ support. They’ll no doubt be REALLY awkward about his paternity leave and I honestly think I’ll be stuck here alone and he’ll be hours away, uncontactable and unable to leave (as there’s never anyone to cover) hours away!

There’s such a lack of stability and respect!
Honestly a lot of our friends have moved out to Australia/Newzealand where the conditions and quality of life are a lot better!

If we don’t do that DH will 100% drop to PT and work predominantly private once he’s a consultant.

It baffles me that the NHS spend so much money training these specialists whilst simultaneously breeding complete contempt over the way they are treated.

There’s no loyalty or appreciation in Dr’s who couldn’t get the day off for their wedding and get harassed their entire honeymoon by the NHS chasing forms they confirmed they’d already received weeks ago! 😡

I did not say you all should just get on with it... I said we just got on with it.

And while we didn't have eportfolios to do (scourge that they are) we didn't have shifts we worked very long hours.
I had a one in two rotation for six months. With 72 hr weekends.

We were not always supported by firms, often the house officer was up all night when the registrar upwards was in bed.

I did not live on site, I had a small child, and house to run as did several of my peers.

But I do agree expectations of public were different then.

Medicine is absolute shit a lot of the time. I am a GP - not in UK but similar issues with decreasing budgets, increased demand.
I work 3-4 days per week - my day will start at 8am and I leave about 7pm. Last week I had one 15 minute break for lunch.
There are some amazing moments of privilege and connection with people and that is what keeps me going but in my mid 50 s now and I am utterly exhausted and not able to stop as I am main income earner.
I don’t know how anyone survives in UK. That medicine can do this to bright, compassionate young people is just awful.
Love to all the lovely medics and partners who have commented❤️

Hadthesnip the vast majority of GPs earn nothing near that! I know about 50 GPs personally! You are perpetuating a daily mail perspective that GPs are high earners. Which tbh they really are not, unless they work about 100 hours a week.

I have a friend whose daughter is studying medicine at the moment and I hope she isn't a mumsnetter or ever reads this thread.

I agree that the money and conditions sound awful. It's very sad to hear of bright dedicated people thinking of leaving the profession or realising that they could earn more elsewhere. The ' big money ' jobs seem to be in the media or IT and its doctors and nurses we need.
I have no experience of this other than being a patient, but this thread is an eye opener to how bad things are.

The80s, I see a lot of later year medical students in my job. Certainly as they go up the years in med school they become well aware of how shit it is. Lots talk to me about trying to get out before they start. Since you are pretty much trapped into the career at an early stage and have a lot of suck costs, not many do . So they end up changing to specialities that are a bit less shit, rather than what they actually want to do.

I’d love to be able to get to them earlier when they actually have a chance to escape to a job where they are not a public punchbag / scape goat.